# Taxation is no different than extortion. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704 "2013-05-07T15:08:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/362 "2013-05-11T04:42:01Z")
> [@user\_hostile](#): > > LOL. And the OP is therefore the only one in this thread who is not deluded? > > It’s witnessing. Game. Set. Match. I didn’t say anyone was deluded. I said that belief in an all powerful god has been supplanted by a belief in all powerful government. Witnessing is a poor metaphor to use to describe someone who attempts to undermine the masses’ submission to the current god of choice. In this scenario I would be the atheist. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/363 "2013-05-11T04:55:04Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > If you have such faith in men, why do you have such contempt for the institution (government) that they have created and agreed to live under? Democratic government evolved to serve as a check on monarchical power. It didn’t evolve out of some mythical social contract. Eventually the opposition became the wielder of the power. Democratic governments are not created out of whole cloth by willing souls living in complete freedom. > [@](#): > > If that’s an answer, then you must think that men are easily fooled. Some are, others respect force (and wisely so in some cases). Still others seek to undermine the force lording over them. ---
**Author:** ![scratch\_llll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@scratch\_llll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch_llll)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/364 "2013-05-11T04:59:57Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > What, the circumstance of living in the South? No. This circumstance which you continually ignore.- It does however hurt many to lower the deficit by cutting programs which help the poor and middle class just to keep the tax rate from going back to the rate it was actually working before the Bush tax cuts. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > So, you allow that the poor or middle class of the South are _either_ stupid or heartless (odd, since it’s apparently heartless to themselves). That’s progress, of a sort, and I hadn’t even pointed out that Obama, whose economic policies I assume you believe to be in the poor and middle class’s best interests if the Republicans’ are not, got no less than 38% of the vote in any Southern state, and won Florida. Are those people stupid, too? No, I don’t count the ones who vote to improve the plight of the ones who most struggle. I don’t even count the rich who do that. And yes the poor and middle class who vote for a party which will cut programs which help them and their children (head start) rather than go back to a higher tax on the wealthy which is proven to work are stupid or heartless even to their own. They let rich assholes who only care about more money in their bank accounts talk them into living yet farther in poverty. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > I’d say the horse saw things differently, a possibility you’ve seemingly never considered. Yep. He saw a sledge to the head at the slaughter house. That is more different than I ever want to consider for myself. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/365 "2013-05-11T05:24:57Z")
> [@scratch\_llll](#): > > And yes the poor and middle class who vote for a party which will cut programs which help them and their children (head start) rather than go back to a higher tax on the wealthy which is proven to work are stupid or heartless even to their own. They let rich assholes who only care about more money in their bank accounts talk them into living yet farther in poverty. Which economists supported your claim that raising taxes during a recovery was “proven to work”. I’m unaware of any school of thought that says doing so will encourage economic growth. Perhaps these heartless voters were thinking about that. > [@](#): > > Yep. He saw a sledge to the head at the slaughter house. That is more different than I ever want to consider for myself. Just to give you a little context. Boxer in Animal Farm was supposed to represent the proletariat. You know, the engine of economic growth? Without his diligence, the animals would have starved. ---
**Author:** ![scratch\_llll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@scratch\_llll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch_llll)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/366 "2013-05-11T05:45:37Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Which economists supported your claim that raising taxes during a recovery was “proven to work”. I’m unaware of any school of thought that says doing so will encourage economic growth. Perhaps these heartless voters were thinking about that. No economist had to. It worked prior to Bush. Any idiot could see it. That was the last time we had a balanced budget. How is that cutting government jobs helping out the unemployment thing working out for ya? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Just to give you a little context. Boxer in Animal Farm was supposed to represent the proletariat. You know, the engine of economic growth? Without his diligence, the animals would have starved. All the animals worked except the pigs. He was the one who always urged doing what the pigs who kept the majority of the proceeds said. He believed they would not betray them just to keep more for themselves. He was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/367 "2013-05-11T06:01:55Z")
> [@scratch\_llll](#): > > No economist had to. It worked prior to Bush. Any idiot could see it. That was the last time we had a balanced budget. How is that cutting government jobs helping out the unemployment thing working out for ya? Government unemployment is hovering around 3-4% last time I checked. The debt increased every year under Clinton. Also, are you suggesting that calibrations in government income tax levels is somehow a magic lever that delivers economic growth? Sorry but it’s a little more complex than that. > [@](#): > > All the animals worked except the pigs. He was the one who always urged doing what the pigs who kept the majority of the proceeds said. He believed they would not betray them just to keep more for themselves. He was wrong. Wait, you know the pigs were the government, right? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/368 "2013-05-11T06:21:06Z")
I’m more interested in the use of Head start as an example of a program helping middle class families and their kids. First, I wasn’t aware Head Start was a middle class program, second, I wasn’t aware of any research showing it actually accomplished anything. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/369 "2013-05-11T06:30:08Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The debt increased every year under Clinton. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![scratch\_llll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@scratch\_llll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch_llll)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/370 "2013-05-11T07:55:29Z")
Jesus. OVERALL employment is not helped by adding government layoffs to the number. I never mentioned economic growth only debt reduction which can be done by cutting programs to the poor, taxing the wealthy, or growing way more than we are capable of. Head start is proven to help increase grades and it said POOR and middle class in that sentence. The last time there was a balanced budget was under Clinton. The pigs were a BAD goverment serving only to increase the wealth of the wealthy. AND I AM DONE WITH TALKING TO PEOPLE IMPERVIOUS TO LOGIC. Good day crazy people. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/371 "2013-05-11T08:57:42Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > In this scenario I would be the atheist. No. I’ve posted [a link to this fun article](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/03/the-market-as-god/306397/?single_page=true) before. Agnostics and atheists follow science and reason. It is the religious who tend to put their faith in gobbledy-gook. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/372 "2013-05-11T17:01:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually putting a cost on it is relatively simple. You charge a toll (for a private road). People will communicate how much they value the use of the road by paying or not paying a given level of toll. This includes people who will pay increased costs for their food because the driver had to pay the toll. Just to point out the obvious — if there is no public land connecting private property, then everybody is at the mercy of their neighbours to get anywhere. Effective monopolies not being a good thing, you’re going to have to have either a legal right-of-way (which would essentially take away part of people’s property rights) or public land connecting pieces of private land. And if you have public land connecting pieces of private land, then any road that goes anywhere will have to go at least in part over public land… meaning it will be, at least in part, a public creation. Also, charging a toll works fine for a highway. How about a city street? Will there be a tollbooth in front of every house? Doesn’t that seem a little inefficient? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Government for most of history derived its power from fooling the populace into believing it was the earthly incarnation of god. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/373 "2013-05-11T17:13:03Z")
> [@scratch\_llll](#): > > The pigs were a BAD goverment serving only to increase the wealth of the wealthy. AND I AM DONE WITH TALKING TO PEOPLE IMPERVIOUS TO LOGIC. Good day crazy people. Sir: I have known several certified crazy people. (I even lived with one who owed her psychiatrist over $150,000.) Everyone of them had a better grasp of economics and political science than the people you are arguing against here. If you insist on insulting crazy people by comparing them to hyper-libertarians, please take it to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/374 "2013-05-11T18:05:17Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Which government invented it? Menger demonstrated how money would arise in a free society years ago. Among the things I don’t know are: -The name of the person who invented it. -The sex of the person who invented it. -The hair color, shoe size, sexual preference, or favorite color of the person who invented it. -The government who invented it. I do know that it was invented by government, and it’s remarkable that you’d try to deny that using some theorist’s theory about how it might have arisen in a “free society.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/375 "2013-05-11T18:13:47Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Inner cities have less state presence than rural areas? In the sense that rural areas tend to have more effective police, yes. When they don’t, you get things like meth rings or generational feuds. When inner cities have effective policing, you get things like modern Times Square. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean by property rights, then. A property right only exists if other people look at something and say, “Yep, that’s yours, I shouldn’t take it unless you give it to me.” Just saying “Mine!” doesn’t equate to property rights. > > Exactly. Now why is government the only thing that can recognize these rights? They have no unique advantage over a private court. Private law would be able to interpret what society says is a legitimate claim to property and sette disputes. Of course there’s an advantage to a single, disinterested authority with an income not contingent on deciding in favor of specific clients. In any case, you were the one claiming that a monkey with a banana represents property rights, and I was showing you that that doesn’t comprise property rights. > [@](#): > > I don’t dispute this possibility. If the book made the case for this claim it would indeed be an interesting read. I just think that a return to anarchy would not cause a society to degenerate morally. I wish I agreed. Unfortunately, here’s what we see happening in such scenarios when they occur: -Police enforcement of anti-violence laws diminishes. -Some assholes who are being held in check by those laws say “Woot!” and start committing violence. -People who aren’t naturally violent get freaked out and start figuring out what they can do. -One of the assholes gets the bright idea to become the Protector of the People and rule over the area. -Some of the people agree to pay protection to this asshole, making this asshole wealthy. -The people that don’t pay protection to this asshole get slaughtered to make a point. -More people pay money to this asshole. -Eventually the Protector’s territory runs into the territory of another Protector. -Ultraviolence. -Government. Once more, you’ve clearly read a lot of theory. I’d recommend you read more history. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/376 "2013-05-11T18:35:31Z")
> [@scratch\_llll](#): > > No. This circumstance which you continually ignore.- > It does however hurt many to lower the deficit by cutting programs which help the poor and middle class just to keep the tax rate from going back to the rate it was actually working before the Bush tax cuts. Yes, I understand that that is what you believe. You’re trying to link a political position to intelligence, which is foolishness. As stated, people support political positions for reasons other than intelligence; mostly other reasons, in fact: morality, culture, ideology, tradition, the lesser of two evils, and so on. > [@scratch llll](#): > > No, I don’t count the ones who vote to improve the plight of the ones who most struggle. I don’t even count the rich who do that. And yes the poor and middle class who vote for a party which will cut programs which help them and their children (head start) rather than go back to a higher tax on the wealthy which is proven to work are stupid or heartless even to their own. They let rich assholes who only care about more money in their bank accounts talk them into living yet farther in poverty. So, the “stupid south” is whatever portion of the 52-62% who voted for Romney that are poor or middle class, except that portion of them who are heartless instead of stupid? > [@scratch llll](#): > > Yep. He saw a sledge to the head at the slaughter house. That is more different than I ever want to consider for myself. Sounds like you should vote the way you think best, then, and give others the same privilege. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/377 "2013-05-11T19:01:59Z")
Still waiting for that cite… ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/378 "2013-05-11T19:15:05Z")
I, for one, am waiting for the sequel threads to carry the concepts in this one forward: \*Kissing is no different than swallowing someone’s head. Hopscotch is no different than Jetpack Rugby. Feeding a pigeon bread crumbs is no different than making Foie Gras. \* ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/379 "2013-05-11T20:34:32Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > So, the “stupid south” is whatever portion of the 52-62% who voted for Romney that are poor or middle class, except that portion of them who are heartless instead of stupid? Heartless and stupid, not just heartless; voting against your own self interest is still stupid even if (or _especially_ if) you are “heartless”. And that’s regardless of geographic location. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/380 "2013-05-16T04:14:41Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Screw that! Let’s got back to the 50’s! I want the marginal tax rates we had under Ike! That’s a 91% effective tax rate on your (adjusting for inflation) eight- or ten-millionth dollar of taxable income? Sure, why not? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/381 "2013-05-16T04:16:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Do you want all the writeoffs and loopholes that we had under Ike as well? Sure, why not? It’s better–that is, more economically stimulative–to reward economically stimulative behavior than to tax the generous and the miser at the same low rate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=20)