# Taxation is no different than extortion. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704 "2013-05-07T15:08:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/21 "2013-05-07T15:49:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Say you prefer to call it extortion instead of taxation. Does it make some sort of practical difference to anybody, or just express how you feel about the subject? If you can find no logical difference, why is calling it extortion considered “the hallmark of an extreme position” as suggested by one individual? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/22 "2013-05-07T15:50:24Z")
So you are proposing taxes are immoral. That’s nice. Let’s just say you’ve convinced us all that you’re right. What follows from that? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/23 "2013-05-07T15:50:46Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I pay taxes willingly, how can it be extortion? Because it is backed up by the threat of force. Business owners willingly pay ransom to mafia members as well. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/24 "2013-05-07T15:51:20Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If that’s the only “refutations” you have, your position has already been compromised by the OP. All your four "refutations are such textbook examples of begging the question–assuming the conclusion you want to prove and using it to argue for your [position–that they aren’t worth noting. But I get that this is an article of faith with you, and I’ve learned a long time ago not to argue with religious zealots. When I get back from the bathroom I’m sitting at the other end of the bar. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/25 "2013-05-07T15:51:50Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > So you are proposing taxes are immoral. That’s nice. Let’s just say you’ve convinced us all that you’re right. What follows from that? How can a moral society be constructed on an immoral edifice? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/26 "2013-05-07T15:53:34Z")
OP’s thesis mystifies me. Would it violate the rules of GD to pronounce it odd that anyone gives the thesis enough credence to bother with a rebuttal? An interesting fact is that the very earliest written records, some even predating the Sumerian alphabet, appear to document “taxes” of crops paid into a chiefdom’s storehouse for future needs. “Taxation” is even earlier than that, of course. Daddy Baboon grunted at Kid Baboon that he should share a banana with his baby sister. I’ve asked before and never gotten an answer: What would Farnaby’s Utopia resemble? _Lord of the Flies_ comes to mind, though even that “political system” had elements of “taxation.” ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/27 "2013-05-07T15:54:09Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > \*\*Typical response number two: “Government is democratically elected. Taxation is the will of the people.” \*\*Suppose there are three individuals on an island, A,B, and C. Is it ok for A and B to “vote” to take C’s food? Two poor kids with knives run up on an affluent businessman in an alleyway. They “vote” to steal his wallet. Will of the people? What makes this exact transaction different when it is scaled up? What makes you think that the natural state of affairs without government is to have private property in the first place? If A, B, and C are on an island with some food, who is saying that some portion of that food is C’s in the first place? If C is an asshole who claims all of the food, and A and B are starving, who is to say that A and B shouldn’t ignore C’s claim? It is government that allows people to have claims to property beyond what he can personally defend so that when you leave your house you can be confident that no one will break in and take over before you return, and if that does happen it is government that you appeal to to enforce your property rights through force. Well-defined property rights are a good idea, which is why democratically-elected governments have them, but they are not “natural”. Taxation is also a good idea, which is why the government’s well-defined property rights are not absolute. Your “right to your property” is not being broken by government through taxation because the property rights given to you by government were not so absolute to prevent taxation in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/28 "2013-05-07T15:54:14Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If you can find no logical difference, why is calling it extortion considered “the hallmark of an extreme position” as suggested by one individual? Because it’s preposterous to put an inflammatory label on something and thereby suggest that it should not be tolerated, when in the real world, there is no fricken way for society to operate without it. It’s either an “extreme position” or the rantings of a 15 year old who just read Ayn Rand for the first time. As I posted upthread, there is\* a lot\* of room for debate about taxes, but calling for the elimination of them by equating taxes with extortion is indeed an “extreme position.” ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/29 "2013-05-07T15:54:40Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > So you are proposing taxes are immoral. That’s nice. Let’s just say you’ve convinced us all that you’re right. What follows from that? Evidently nothing, or its a thread hijack. We are only permitted to express agreement. Everything else is off limits. We also cannot ask about what would result from having no taxes. I think this ‘debate’ is over then, right? Since anything other than ‘I agree’ is verboten as per the OP? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/30 "2013-05-07T15:55:21Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Why does there need to be a distinction? > > If you need there to be a distinction, extortion by individuals is illegal, taxation by representatives is legal. That’s the distinction. Here’s another, taxes are a “necessary evil.” You can debate the rates, the purposes, and the mechanisms (sales tax vs. Property tax vs. income tax), but you can’t seriously or honestly debate the need for revenue for government functions. Private extortion is not necessary and is simply theft by threat of force, i.e., a crime. Slavery was considered a necessary evil by many in the antebellum South. I would consider labelling anything a “necessary evil” a failure of human morality. Also, in your argument you imply that ALL government revenue is “needed”. Are you prepared to take that position? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/31 "2013-05-07T15:55:25Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Because it is backed up by the threat of force. So are property rights. Does that make them immoral? ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/32 "2013-05-07T15:55:45Z")
If you want to live where the government is weak, and tough guys can do what they want, you can always move to Somalia. But what I don’t understand is that as few as ten years ago, something like the OP would be laughed off as nutty. Today, I can think of several people in Congress who would say exactly the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/33 "2013-05-07T15:56:33Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > How can a moral society be constructed on an immoral edifice? There are\* a lot \*of things immoral in the world. Why are you starting with taxes? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/34 "2013-05-07T15:58:29Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If you can find no logical difference, why is calling it extortion considered “the hallmark of an extreme position” as suggested by one individual? Because your choice of terms reflects an extreme viewpoint? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/35 "2013-05-07T15:59:00Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Also, in your argument you imply that ALL government revenue is “needed”. Are you prepared to take that position? I think you missed my post where I explained that there are perfectly legitimate arguments over the amount of tax the government collects and what it is used for. Arguing that taxes, per se, are improper is what I thought we were debating. I paid more taxes this year than I even earned in my first 10 years in the workforce. Believe me, I’m open to a conversation about how to lower taxes. Calling taxation “extortion,” however, doesn’t advance the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/36 "2013-05-07T16:01:28Z")
Virtually all laws are “backed up by the threat of force”, i.e. you can be imprisoned if you refuse to obey them. Many carry potential fines for disobedience, which one can call “extortion” if so inclined. Yelling that government is tantamount to the Mafia because it requires you to do things that annoy you is kind of silly, but in keeping with what we regularly hear from Rand Paul groupies. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/37 "2013-05-07T16:03:46Z")
Yes, it is. Taxation is legal. Extortion is illegal. Easy peasy. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/38 "2013-05-07T16:05:18Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > OP’s thesis mystifies me. Would it violate the rules of GD to pronounce it odd that anyone gives the thesis enough credence to bother with a rebuttal? > > An interesting fact is that the very earliest written records, some even predating the Sumerian alphabet, appear to document “taxes” of crops paid into a chiefdom’s storehouse for future needs. > > “Taxation” is even earlier than that, of course. Daddy Baboon grunted at Kid Baboon that he should share a banana with his baby sister. > > I’ve asked before and never gotten an answer: What would Farnaby’s Utopia resemble? _Lord of the Flies_ comes to mind, though even that “political system” had elements of “taxation.” Can i summarize your argument as follows?: “Oh, its cool, we’ve always done that” We have also always participated in wars of aggression, is it off limits to question the morality of doing so? > [@leahcim](#): > > What makes you think that the natural state of affairs without government is to have private property in the first place? If A, B, and C are on an island with some food, who is saying that some portion of that food is C’s in the first place? If C is an asshole who claims all of the food, and A and B are starving, who is to say that A and B shouldn’t ignore C’s claim? > > It is government that allows people to have claims to property beyond what he can personally defend so that when you leave your house you can be confident that no one will break in and take over before you return, and if that does happen it is government that you appeal to to enforce your property rights through force. > > Well-defined property rights are a good idea, which is why democratically-elected governments have them, but they are not “natural”. Taxation is also a good idea, which is why the government’s well-defined property rights are not absolute. Your “right to your property” is not being broken by government through taxation because the property rights given to you by government were not so absolute to prevent taxation in the first place. The right to private property isn’t a gift from government. It proceeds logically from a concept of self ownership. Do you own yourself? Well then you own the product of your labor. No need for government to decide that for us. > [@Procrustus](#): > > Because it’s preposterous to put an inflammatory label on something and thereby suggest that it should not be tolerated, when in the real world, there is no fricken way for society to operate without it. It’s either an “extreme position” or the rantings of a 15 year old who just read Ayn Rand for the first time. As I posted upthread, there is\* a lot\* of room for debate about taxes, but calling for the elimination of them by equating taxes with extortion is indeed an “extreme position.” Society operates just fine without coercion. Happens everyday in fact. If you want to demagogue the issue with ramblings about Ayn Rand, save your energy. > [@Airbeck](#): > > Evidently nothing, or its a thread hijack. We are only permitted to express agreement. Everything else is off limits. We also cannot ask about what would result from having no taxes. > > I think this ‘debate’ is over then, right? Since anything other than ‘I agree’ is verboten as per the OP? If you want to address the question i’d be happy to respond. You haven’t. See every time i post different people repeat the same arguments page after page. I thought i’d knock a few down right off the bat. Since nobody has refuted any of these arguments so far, i see no need to address them. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/39 "2013-05-07T16:06:08Z")
Nobody is forcing you to pay taxes. You’re free to leave the country if you wish. But as long as you stay here, you’re benefiting from the services the government provides and it’s unreasonable to want to get these benefits without paying your fair share. If you don’t want these benefits, you have two options. One, vote for representatives who will repeal the laws that provide the benefits. Two, leave the country. And it’s not unreasonable to force people to pay for [public goods](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good) that they’re using, to prevent free-rider problems. ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/40 "2013-05-07T16:10:02Z")
It is fairly simple to demolish all this nonsense. Let’s start with the [definition of a “state”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_(polity)): > [@](#): > > The most commonly used definition is Max Weber’s, which describes the state as a compulsory political organization with a centralized government that maintains a monopoly of the legitimate use of force within a certain territory So right away although “taxes” and “extortion” are similar in that the collection of wealth is backed up by force, “extortion” by definition uses an illegitimate threat of force. This is the key difference; if you want to argue they are the same, you’re arguing for a new definition of what a “state” is. Going further, I think most folks here would refute the OP via some form of (3) “Taxes are the price paid for living in society.” To which the OP retorted: > [@](#): > > “5 dollars is the price paid for eating a hamburger” No shit, here’s 5 dollars. I pay for the hamburger, why wouldn’t i pay for the benefits of society. What if I live in an area where i want no parts of that particular society and would rather take up a hermitage? This argument ignores the fact that hermits are taxed. It is not possible to live in an area and not benefit from the society which also occupies the area itself or its surroundings. The very fact you are able “cut yourself off” is enforced by the society. How long do you think you could last as a hermit if you didn’t have a society around you that agreed to leave you alone and enforced that right with laws? The American fantasy of the rugged individual dependent on no one else is false; even Thoreau depended on the charity of others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=3)