# Taxation is no different than extortion. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704 "2013-05-07T15:08:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/522 "2013-06-04T05:16:23Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > . Those labels are pretty universal though so don’t feel left out. Well, if by “universal” you mean “used by people who can’t or won’t contemplate the consequences of what they propose”, sure. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/523 "2013-06-04T05:29:56Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You can’t employ someone to protect you? I do. They are called the police. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/524 "2013-06-04T05:59:28Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Only individuals have a right to self defense of person and property. Groups do not have a right to self defense,… What about when I hire someone to protect me. Don’t we then become a group, or must my bodyguard surrender his right to self-preservation and think only of protecting me? (Good luck hiring someone to do that.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/525 "2013-06-04T06:07:24Z")
That’s why you have to have lots of children. They’re small - you can throw them into the paths of the bullets. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/526 "2013-06-04T06:14:02Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Lawfulness is arbitrarily determined by the state. They call their extortions “taxes”. They also call their murders “wars and executions”, their kidnappings “arrests”, and their enslavement “selective service”. Fair enough. But my point stands, if taxes are extortion, than all laws are extortion. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You went off the rails a bit when you claimed commerce is extortion. Voluntary exchange between individuals for mutual benefit is extortion in the same sense that taxation is extortion? Nah. You can’t have this food without which you will starve, you can’t have this place to live, unless you fork over money, you can’t have medicine to save your life? That’s no more of a stretch than taxes. Extortion “mutually benefits” both parties and is “voluntary” in the same sense as commerce. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > whether or not taxation is extortion is “irrelevant” to my debate? That’s strange because I remember making that central to the debate. My point is, by phrasing it that way, you are just starting a semantic debate which is pointless. Given what you originally wrote, it doesn’t seem like that’s what really matters to you. If we could prove to you that taxes didn’t fall under the definition of extortion, would suddenly think that made them OK? If not, then that’s irrelevant. You should get to your real point, which is that taxes are bad because of whatever consequence of them you disagree with. Debating whether you can put that under some arbitrary label is both merely a semantic debate and also the equivalent of an ad hominem attack on them, which is not sound reasoning. Just get to the point, and say what the system is doing wrong, and in what form you would change the system to make it better. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/527 "2013-06-04T15:24:35Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > Fair enough. But my point stands, if taxes are extortion, than all laws are extortion. > > You can’t have this food without which you will starve, you can’t have this place to live, unless you fork over money, you can’t have medicine to save your life? That’s no more of a stretch than taxes. Extortion “mutually benefits” both parties and is “voluntary” in the same sense as commerce. . Except with taxes, the state is arbitrarily claiming a portion of your labor as its property. The food dealer is not claiming your property. He is competing with other providers of food for the product of your labor. Monopolies arise only with state intervention. You are exchanging your property with his property. If you don’t buy his food, he lowers his price or you find another provider of food. If you don’t pay taxes they can throw you in jail. The government is nothing more than an army which has codified and sanitized its method of exacting tribute over its conquered area. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/528 "2013-06-04T15:34:49Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Except with taxes, the state is arbitrarily claiming a portion of your labor as its property. The food dealer is not claiming your property. He is competing with other providers of food for the product of your labor. \ You are exchanging your property with his property. If you don’t buy his food, he lowers his price or you find another provider of food. The state is competing with other states for you to live in their territory and earn the fruits of your labor there. If you don’t like the price you can leave and go to another state, assuming they’ll take you. And yet, inspite of the free market, no state has arisen that meets your criteria. Isn’t the only reasonable conclusion that there is insufficient demand? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Monopolies arise only with state intervention. Nonsense ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/529 "2013-06-04T16:10:55Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Except with taxes, the state is arbitrarily claiming a portion of your labor as its property. The food dealer is not claiming your property. He is competing with other providers of food for the product of your labor. Monopolies arise only with state intervention. You are exchanging your property with his property. If you don’t buy his food, he lowers his price or you find another provider of food. If you don’t pay taxes they can throw you in jail. > > The government is nothing more than an army which has codified and sanitized its method of exacting tribute over its conquered area. It still sounds to me like you want something for nothing. You want to live in a nation whose freedom is protected by a military that you don’t want to pay for. You’re driving on roads that you don’t want to pay for. You’re benefitting from living in an educated society, made possible by public primary, secondary, and in many cases post-secondary publicly funded educational systems that you don’t want to pay for. You want the confidence of buying food that is safe to eat without paying for the inspectors and regulations that make that possible. It’s my opinion that you’re getting far more fruit from your labor by living in a society that taxes than you would be otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/530 "2013-06-04T16:31:30Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Except with taxes, the state is arbitrarily claiming a portion of your labor as its property. Not labor, income. All of the money belongs to the government. You want to use its property, you have to play by its rules or work to change them. You are free to offer a direct barter and never pay taxes again. Using money while complaining about taxes is like letting the fire truck save your house from a fire while complaining about taxes. Where do you think the money to pay your salary came from? The state. And it’s not arbitrary. It’s for the common good. Normally we think of extortion as benefiting the extorter, but that doesn’t happen here. The state isn’t benefiting because the state isn’t a person. It has no stake in your money. This is more akin to someone taking your keys because you are too drunk to drive. The money is not ultimately going to the state, it’s going back to you in a different form. You could claim that the state is the people in charge, but far more taxes go to other things than to their salaries. You could claim something about corporations, but in general the politicians going out of the way to help corporations are also the ones with lowering taxes on their platform. Now you can make an argument against having a Nanny State, but this is a very different sort of evil than extortion. Or again if you insist on calling it extortion, then you have to call all laws extortion. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Monopolies arise only with state intervention. Pretty much the complete opposite is true. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If you don’t buy his food, he lowers his price or you find another provider of food. Or… You starve to death. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The government is nothing more than an army which has codified and sanitized its method of exacting tribute over its conquered area. Tributes go to kings. There are no kings here. The state is an abstract collective. But even if we assume all your arguments are correct, so what? Every system is flawed, including ours, but its a lot better than what came before. Again I ask, how would you change it for the better? And how would you change it in such a way that there was a smooth transition? No one is stopping you. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/531 "2013-06-04T17:15:18Z")
OP is anarchist trollery and that is all it is. 11 pages is way too much welfare for the trollery. Let us hope the thread winds down soon. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/532 "2013-06-04T17:19:31Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > …You are free to offer a direct barter and never pay taxes again… You better not try it: [IRS: Bartering Income](http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html) (from link): > [@](#): > > Bartering occurs when you exchange goods or services without exchanging money. An example of bartering is a plumber doing repair work for a dentist in exchange for dental services. \*You must include in gross income in the year of receipt the fair market value of goods and services received in exchange for goods or services you provide or may provide under the bartering arrangement. \* ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/533 "2013-06-04T17:22:28Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Lawfulness is arbitrarily determined by the state. Have you given your consent to be governed as most of us have done? If not why do you partake of the fruits and wine that our community of consenters has so marvelously produced since the Declaration of Independence was penned? > [@](#): > > The Declaration of Independence says, “Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.” This means that government gets all its power from the people. The people set up the government. > > The people run the government. The government does not run the people. If people don’t like the government, they have the right to change it. > > [http://www.crfcelebrateamerica.org/index.php/ideas/51-consent-of-the-governed](http://www.crfcelebrateamerica.org/index.php/ideas/51-consent-of-the-governed) ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/534 "2013-06-04T17:29:21Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Have you given your consent to be governed as most of us have done? If not why do you partake of the fruits and wine that our community of consenters has so marvelously produced since the Declaration of Independence was penned? To paraphrase Mr. Romney, governments are people, my friend! ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/535 "2013-06-04T17:42:46Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You can’t employ someone to protect you? No, actually I can’t, I can’t afford to. Which I know in Libertopia means I have a right to die amonst the highwaymen and brigands, because the worst sin in Libertopia is a shortage of money which buys human rights and dignity. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/536 "2013-06-04T17:46:29Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > OP is anarchist trollery and that is all it is. > > 11 pages is way too much welfare for the trollery. Let us hope the thread winds down soon. Better yet, wind down your accusations (or your participation here). You can’t insult other people in this forum. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/537 "2013-06-04T18:09:38Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Monopolies arise only with state intervention. [QUOTE=jackdavinci] Pretty much the complete opposite is true. [/quote] Hold on, there. It’s going too far to say that monopolies _only_ arise due to state intervention, but that does describe a major portion of them, both at the federal level (USPS, AT&T, New Deal cartels, Civil Aeronautics Board, United States Mail Steamship Company) and the state or local (taxi medallions, state liquor stores). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/538 "2013-06-04T18:36:35Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Hold on, there. It’s going too far to say that monopolies _only_ arise due to state intervention, but that does describe a major portion of them, both at the federal level (USPS, AT&T, New Deal cartels, Civil Aeronautics Board, United States Mail Steamship Company) and the state or local (taxi medallions, state liquor stores). No, they don’t. Monopolies are something that capitalism has a natural tendency to produce, unless the State breaks them up or prevents them from forming. And the Civil Aeronautics Board _wasn’t_ a monopoly, it was a government agency. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/539 "2013-06-04T18:45:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, they don’t. Monopolies are something that capitalism has a natural tendency to produce, unless the State breaks them up or prevents them from forming. But the state also can and has caused them to form. On any list of causes of monopolization, in with technical barriers and other causes, you will find “legal barriers”. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > And the Civil Aeronautics Board _wasn’t_ a monopoly, it was a government agency. With monopolistic effects…well, perhaps _cartelizing_ effects would be more accurate in that case. So, I’ll withdraw that one. ---
**Author:** ![6079smithW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/db5fbb/32.png) [@6079smithW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/6079smithW)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/540 "2013-06-04T19:17:47Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > According to the preamble to the Constitution, one of the things the government is supposed to do is “promote the general welfare.” > > A general comment, not directed at anyone in this thread: it makes me physically ill to realize that some people think it’s more important for Mitt Romney to have $401 million rather than $400 million in the bank, than it is to use that million to literally make the difference between life and death for 100 people who can’t afford proper food, shelter, or medical care. Which 100 people? Some people really don’t deserve any help, at all, and we’d all be better of if Mitt kept his money. What makes me sick are adaher’s endless straw-man comments. “Some people think everyone should be taxed at 100% and then all of it should be re-distributed by Obama, but me, I disagree with those people.” Blech. ---
**Author:** ![6079smithW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/db5fbb/32.png) [@6079smithW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/6079smithW)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/541 "2013-06-04T19:21:41Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Well, I never argued that it’s wrong so much as a necessary evil. It’s force, and under normal circumstances, we almost all agree that the use of force is a necessary evil, not a wonderful thing that we should use willy-nilly for the most frivolous of reasons. > > The problem, as I see it, is that liberals suddenly go from wishy-washy soft on crime types to hardcore law and order when it comes to taxation. They believe that Greece’s problem is that Greece didn’t throw enough people in prison or seize enough of the people’s homes. So it’s okay if the only people who pay taxes are those who are least able to avoid them? This is the problem with the IRS bashing. Wait until Americans start to feel like only suckers pay taxes. That’s the way the Greeks feel about it, and they have a government that can’t pay its bills. This whole idea that there’s something wrong with enforcing tax laws is outrageous. You don’t want to pay? Then I’m happy to pay my taxes as long as they are used to incarcerate you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=28)