# Taxation is no different than extortion. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704 "2013-05-07T15:08:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/41 "2013-05-07T16:12:09Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > So are property rights. Does that make them immoral? Property rights can be defended legitimately as a form of self defense. > [@TonySinclair](#): > > If you want to live where the government is weak, and tough guys can do what they want, you can always move to Somalia. > > But what I don’t understand is that as few as ten years ago, something like the OP would be laughed off as nutty. Today, I can think of several people in Congress who would say exactly the same thing. At last Somalia makes an appearance. > [@Procrustus](#): > > There are\* a lot \*of things immoral in the world. Why are you starting with taxes? Because they are accepted as legitimate. Most immoral things are shunned by society. > [@Marley23](#): > > Because your choice of terms reflects an extreme viewpoint? My diction is extreme? > [@Procrustus](#): > > I think you missed my post where I explained that there are perfectly legitimate arguments over the amount of tax the government collects and what it is used for. Arguing that taxes, per se, are improper is what I thought we were debating. I paid more taxes this year than I even earned in my first 10 years in the workforce. Believe me, I’m open to a conversation about how to lower taxes. Calling taxation “extortion,” however, doesn’t advance the conversation. You drew a distinction between extortion and taxation saying that taxation is “needed” while extortion benefits the extorter. Taxation benefits the taxer as well but i’ll leave that aside. Does everyone need taxation? If not, are they being extorted? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/42 "2013-05-07T16:13:33Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I thought i’d knock a few down right off the bat. Since nobody has refuted any of these arguments so far, i see no need to address them. And yet, there they are standing in your way. It’s almost as if you haven’t actually refuted them. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/43 "2013-05-07T16:14:03Z")
Yes, taxation is extortion of a kind. Yes, taxation is immoral. However, it is the lesser of two evils. A society without a functioning government, and government does need revenue to function, is far worse than one with a tax burden subject to a democratic process. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > How can a moral society be constructed on an immoral edifice? It can’t, but it’s irrelevant as there is no such thing as a moral society. All societies are a compromise of morality from the start, to achieve a greater end than the individual is capable of. The benefits are thought to outweigh the costs. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/44 "2013-05-07T16:16:32Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > Nobody is forcing you to pay taxes. You’re free to leave the country if you wish. But as long as you stay here, you’re benefiting from the services the government provides and it’s unreasonable to want to get these benefits without paying your fair share. This is the slaveowner argument more or less. “You benefit from our arrangement so you must yield to my demands.” > [@](#): > > If you don’t want these benefits, you have two options. One, vote for representatives who will repeal the laws that provide the benefits. Two, leave the country. Three, seek the abolishment of taxation at home. > [@](#): > > And it’s not unreasonable to force people to pay for [public goods](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good) that they’re using, to prevent free-rider problems. It’s not unreasonable to force slaves to pay for goods they are using.- Some slaveowner ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/45 "2013-05-07T16:20:01Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Three, seek the abolishment of taxation at home. What, exactly, do you think “vote for representatives who will repeal the laws that provide the benefits” means? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/46 "2013-05-07T16:20:12Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You drew a distinction between extortion and taxation saying that taxation is “needed” while extortion benefits the extorter. Taxation benefits the taxer as well but i’ll leave that aside. Does everyone need taxation? If not, are they being extorted? Some people need the services provided by taxation. Others need to contribute to the pot. Most need both. Maybe you’re familiar with the idea, “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/47 "2013-05-07T16:20:57Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > My diction is extreme? Oh please. Your choice of words says that you look at this issue in a particular way. So far you’ve repeatedly compared taxation to slavery, Mafia extortion, and stealing, among other things. You chose your words deliberately, did you not? Why act surprised when people respond to your comparisons? It can’t be news to you that this is not the way most people see these issues and that most people consider your view quite extreme. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/48 "2013-05-07T16:22:51Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It can’t, but it’s irrelevant as there is no such thing as a moral society. All societies are a compromise of morality from the start, to achieve a greater end than the individual is capable of. The benefits are thought to outweigh the costs. I would define a moral society as one free from “legitimate” or legal coercion. I’m not sure how you say all societies are a compromis of morality from the start. Society can be built on a voluntary basis that achieves a greater end thatn the individual is capable of. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/49 "2013-05-07T16:24:45Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Society can be built on a voluntary basis that achieves a greater end thatn the individual is capable of. And as soon as the society does something that one member is opposed to, it’s no longer moral. And if everybody leaves as soon as the society does something they don’t like, it’s not going to be a society for very long. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/50 "2013-05-07T16:32:16Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Property rights can be defended legitimately as a form of self defense. By the same token, taxation can be defended legitimately as the price of civil society. Really, you’re being quite silly. First, you argue that taxes are unjust because they are enforced by force. But then in the next breath you argue that property rights aren’t unjust even though they’re enforced by force as well. If there are legitimate uses of force, then why isn’t the enforcement of taxation one of those legitimate uses? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/51 "2013-05-07T16:33:02Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Some people need the services provided by taxation. Others need to contribute to the pot. Most need both. Maybe you’re familiar with the idea, “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.” 😃 Yeah, Jesus, right? If people can form a government that ostensibly accomplishes this ideal (or attempts to) why can they not provide for the unfortunate’s needs without coercion? > [@Marley23](#): > > Oh please. Your choice of words says that you look at this issue in a particular way. So far you’ve repeatedly compared taxation to slavery, Mafia extortion, and stealing, among other things. You chose your words deliberately, did you not? Why act surprised when people respond to your comparisons? It can’t be news to you that this is not the way most people see these issues and that most people consider your view quite extreme. If you accept that taxation=extortion and it is not extreme to be against extortion, why is it extreme to be against taxation? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/52 "2013-05-07T16:34:13Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > What makes you think that the natural state of affairs without government is to have private property in the first place? If A, B, and C are on an island with some food, who is saying that some portion of that food is C’s in the first place? If C is an asshole who claims all of the food, and A and B are starving, who is to say that A and B shouldn’t ignore C’s claim? This, exactly. And the “product of your labor” routine started by our friend John Locke was racist at its outset (he admitted that it only works if there’s a large pool of natural resources freely available for the taking, but pointed at the Americas as a source of these natural resources, as though nobody living there already had any claim to things like the forests they’d fundamentally improved through regular burnings and the like) and also relied on God as part of its justification (which I can look up if you really need me to). Autonomy over your body absolutely does not lead logically into the sort of private property rights we currently experience, and indeed it could logically lead to something very different, if we assume that control over your body means access to the resources necessary to keep your body running. Private property exists only at the whim of Leviathan. It does not exist in a state of nature. It does not exist in an anarchy. Get rid of government, and there’s no such thing as property rights. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/53 "2013-05-07T16:34:23Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > This is the slaveowner argument more or less. “You benefit from our arrangement so you must yield to my demands.” You sound like a petulant teenager, keen to assert your autonomy while living under your parents’ roof, eating their food and using their stuff, and complaining bitterly every time they ask you to take out the garbage or put some gas in the car. Do please keep stamping your feet and shouting “It’s not fair!”; it’s very amusing to the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/54 "2013-05-07T16:34:23Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > This is the slaveowner argument more or less. “You benefit from our arrangement so you must yield to my demands.” > > Three, seek the abolishment of taxation at home. > > It’s not unreasonable to force slaves to pay for goods they are using.- Some slaveowner If you go into a restaurant, order food, and eat it, you can’t cry “Extortion!” when they give you the bill. If you don’t want to pay the bill, don’t eat the food. Personally, I like police departments, public roads, and the like, so I’m happy to help pay for them. Bu if you don’t want to pay for them, then _stop using them_. As long as you’re here, you’re getting their benefits, so either pay your fair share, or leave. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/55 "2013-05-07T16:34:26Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > By the same token, taxation can be defended legitimately as the price of civil society. > > Really, you’re being quite silly. First, you argue that taxes are unjust because they are enforced by force. But then in the next breath you argue that property rights aren’t unjust even though they’re enforced by force as well. > > If there are legitimate uses of force, then why isn’t the enforcement of taxation one of those legitimate uses? Self defense is the only legitimate use of force. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/56 "2013-05-07T16:34:57Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Government’s taxation of individuals is backed up by the threat of imprisonment. That is the only reason it is successful. My question is: What makes this transaction different from extortion? (if you even make that distinction, i do not) > > **Typical response number one: “Government taxes our labor in order to provide us with services.”** This is what could be called the “benevolent slavemaster” argument. In this view, a slaveowner’s theft of his slave’s labor was justified on the grounds that he provided the slave with food and shelter (services). For the proponents of this argument, the slaveowner’s theft was not wrong. I have an issue with that. > > \*\*Typical response number two: “Government is democratically elected. Taxation is the will of the people.” \*\*Suppose there are three individuals on an island, A,B, and C. Is it ok for A and B to “vote” to take C’s food? Two poor kids with knives run up on an affluent businessman in an alleyway. They “vote” to steal his wallet. Will of the people? What makes this exact transaction different when it is scaled up? > > **Typical response number three: “Taxes are the price paid for living in society.”** Who’s society? Society is nothing but the name given to the sum of voluntary transactions between individuals. Your access to society is determined by the willingness of individual members of that society to engage with you. Government is not the gatekeeper to society. There should be no single gatekeeper. If i want to do business with a member of a particular society, let him make that decision. If he won’t do business with me because i don’t pay taxes thats his business. If members of a society all agree that paying taxes is a prerequisite for business, I may decide to voluntarily pay taxes (or fees, whatever they would be called in that scenario). > > “5 dollars is the price paid for eating a hamburger” No shit, here’s 5 dollars. I pay for the hamburger, why wouldn’t i pay for the benefits of society. What if I live in an area where i want no parts of that particular society and would rather take up a hermitage? This argument ignores the fact that hermits are taxed. > > **Typical response number four. “Everyone benefits from government expenditure”** Everyone benefits from Kleenex too, but I don’t see them jacking money from my check every week so individuals can dispose of their boogies. The difference is the government holds no sway over you wanting to leave the country. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/57 "2013-05-07T16:34:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And as soon as the society does something that one member is opposed to, it’s no longer moral. And if everybody leaves as soon as the society does something they don’t like, it’s not going to be a society for very long. I thought we weren’t allowed to ask about what happens to society when there are no taxes. That was asked about in post 4, but the OP refused to answer and only replied with a question. When I raised that issue, I was accused of hijacking the thread. Are we or are we not allowed to ask what happens after government revenue reaches 0$? I’m so confused by the arbitrary rules in this thread … ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/58 "2013-05-07T16:36:55Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I would define a moral society as one free from “legitimate” or legal coercion. I’m not sure how you say all societies are a compromis of morality from the start. Society can be built on a voluntary basis that achieves a greater end thatn the individual is capable of. Firstly, because only individuals are capable of morality, because only individuals are capable of moral choices, abstractions like societies are not. Secondly, because there are no societies free from coercion, they exist _in order to_ practice coercion, to enforce standards of conduct that benefit the group, but may not benefit each individual member. A rapist is certainly not benefiting from laws against rape, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/59 "2013-05-07T16:37:22Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Self defense is the only legitimate use of force. Says who? ---
**Author:** ![babygoat666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@babygoat666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/babygoat666)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/60 "2013-05-07T16:37:38Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Self defense is the only legitimate use of force. So much for your property then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=4)