# Taxation is no different than extortion. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704 "2013-05-07T15:08:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/81 "2013-05-07T17:07:48Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I have different definition of a moral society but thats neither here nor there. > > I would draw a distinction between the coercion you mention (Mill?) and real deal coercion enforced by guns and cages. Very well then, setting aside the moral dimension, I would further note that a purely voluntary society is impossible, because there is no way to perfectly isolate the effects we have on each other into yes-or-no voluntary choices. Imagine something as simple as the stench of your new fish cannery spoiling the aromas around my summer home…what voluntary choice did I make that justifies the externality of your stench? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/82 "2013-05-07T17:08:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Nonsense. If I am starving, and you have inherited a massive estate full of food from your father the dictator, and I knock you down on my way out of your house with a loaf of bread for my family, it is you who have acted illegitimately, not me. Since in this scenario the property was acquired illegitimately, i have no right to defend it as my property. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/83 "2013-05-07T17:10:41Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Since in this scenario the property was acquired illegitimately, i have no right to defend it as my property. What if you inherited it from your dad, who inherited it from HIS dad the dictator? How far back may we trace the provenance of property to determine whether it was acquired legitimately? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/84 "2013-05-07T17:11:29Z")
I think Will’s got it mostly wrong, but he is right about one thing: taxation implies the use of force, even deadly force. What happened to those tax protesters in New Hampshire? Their house was surrounded by men with guns and they got their power cut off. Now of course we need taxes. There isn’t a country around that doesn’t tax. But all spending should have to meet a certain bar: Are we willing to use force to justify this program? IMO, most of what the federal government does doesn’t meet that standard. I certainly wouldn’t kill for NPR, or to force people to participate in Social Security or Obamacare(letting people voluntarily be part of these programs is fine though). ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/85 "2013-05-07T17:20:03Z")
Step 1: State simplistic and implausible scenario as Truth. Step 2: Completely ignore Human Nature and real world consequences of said scenario. Step 3: Declare Moral Victory. ---
**Author:** ![randomface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@randomface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randomface)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/86 "2013-05-07T17:22:39Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Seriously? Even with the first 3 arguments gone, (which you didn’t refute, you just refuse to acknowledge them), I have another for you. > > You get actual protection for your taxes. Extortionists only protect you from themselves. The government at least tries to protect you from all comers. The only time you don’t need a government is when you’re living somewhere no one wants to live, and they still come in pretty handy then. > > However, I refuse to debate this until you’re at least willing to debate reasons 1-3. > > Yay! I win now! In the past, mafia style “protection” did actually protect you from both the mafia “protecting” you as well as any of the other mafias acting in the area and some of the unaffiliated actors. It may or may not have also given you some benefit as to red tape and bureaucracy. The Sicilian Mafia rose up in the aftermath of feudalism in Italy as a form of loose government in order to protect property from bandits as well as to provide other protection services. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/87 "2013-05-07T17:27:21Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > As i’ve mentioned, defense of property is defense of self. What an utterly bizarre proposition. How do you justify it? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/88 "2013-05-07T17:30:39Z")
> [@randomface](#): > > In the past, mafia style “protection” did actually protect you from both the mafia “protecting” you as well as any of the other mafias acting in the area and some of the unaffiliated actors. It may or may not have also given you some benefit as to red tape and bureaucracy. > > The Sicilian Mafia rose up in the aftermath of feudalism in Italy as a form of loose government in order to protect property from bandits as well as to provide other protection services. And that’s precisely the point, I think: when there’s no government, people spontaneously fill the void with institutions that act like government. They are terrible and incompetent and brutal a lot of the time, but they provide the same fundamental service that Leviathan provides. If you don’t want mafiosos coming around demanding protection money in arbitrary and self-serving manners, you get them under your hell as much as you can by voting the mafioso in and out of office and putting checks and balances on them that prevent them from going overboard in their abuse of you. Without thugs, government becomes useless. Without thugs, government cannot function. I’m taking grant proposals for eliminating thugs. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/89 "2013-05-07T17:44:40Z")
> [@randomface](#): > > The Sicilian Mafia rose up in the aftermath of feudalism in Italy as a form of loose government in order to protect property from bandits as well as to provide other protection services. The Mafia IS feudalism. In the absence of civil authority, order is maintain by thugs. Over time the power relationships between bands of thugs solidify since it’s generally in everyone’s best interests to keep fighting to a minimum. Of course, turf wars still break out from time to time when one thug thinks he has the opportunity to gain an advantage, but in general you get a stable hierarchy of thuggery, with the capo-of-capos sitting at the top of the pile and everyone else swearing loyalty to the thugs above. This is how Europe was organized from the 5th to the 18th Centuries – a hierarchy of mob bosses called the aristocracy. And there’s a strong push to return to that system now. In the absence of a strong central government, the vacuum is filled by a feudal hierarchy of the rich and powerful. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/90 "2013-05-07T18:04:49Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > And there’s a strong push to return to that system now. In the absence of a strong central government, the vacuum is filled by a feudal hierarchy of the rich and powerful. The push is to question how strong the central government needs to be to avoid a vacuum for extralegal tyranny, not to create the vacuum. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/91 "2013-05-07T18:10:15Z")
Taxation may or may not be immoral, but before I can get interested in this premise, I’ll need to hear in what specific ways the OP feels he is harmed by taxation. In other words, prove measurable damages and maybe I’ll listen. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/92 "2013-05-07T18:10:37Z")
Tell me, OP, have you ever been bona fide extorted ? I mean, by the Mob, the Triads, Yakuzas, people who know about extortion ? If so, what did you get in return, exactly ; and did you have any input on how your extortion money was spent ? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > As i’ve mentioned, defense of property is defense of self. I’ve had my shit taken from me a coupla times. Well, not ALL my shit, but a lot of my most important shit. I’m still here. I dispute your assertion. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/93 "2013-05-07T18:23:30Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > The Mafia IS feudalism. I was watching a documentary on the Medicis recently, and was amazed by how reminiscent of the Mafia their style of government was. Not so much the “protection racket” aspect, but lots of the “we’ll do you a personal favour now and expect some loyalty in return later”. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/94 "2013-05-07T18:29:23Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Government’s taxation of individuals is backed up by the threat of imprisonment. That is the only reason it is successful. My question is: What makes this transaction different from extortion? (if you even make that distinction, i do not) Are contracts extortion? They are also backed up by the threat of force, kidnapping, or robbery. Let’s say I agree to buy a fridge from you, COD. You deliver the fridge. Then I decide that I don’t want to pay, which, as a free individual, I must enjoy the right to change my mind. You take me to court and win your case. The court orders me to pay you, but as a free individual, I refuse. I reject the power of the state to intervene in the affairs between me and you. Then the options are that someone either comes to rob me (either of my fridge or my money) or maybe I end up in jail for contempt or something. Either way, that’s a crime against a free person. Therefore, contracts are robbery. It doesn’t matter how long contracts have been around through history, as a free person, I should not be compelled to do something I no longer care to do. Same thing with taxes. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/95 "2013-05-07T18:37:02Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Taxation may or may not be immoral, but before I can get interested in this premise, I’ll need to hear in what specific ways the OP feels he is harmed by taxation. In other words, prove measurable damages and maybe I’ll listen. That’s not hard. Fork over 25-50% of your income or else. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/96 "2013-05-07T18:37:08Z")
Before we define taxes as extortion, lets first define ownership. The government can’t extort something from you unless you own it in the first place. You may claim to own your car or your house, but that is just because you are backed up by a band of thugs who will only let you use these items and will prevent me if I try to use them, even if you aren’t using them at the time and my need for them is greater than yours!!. All property is theft. Since you claim to be against theft you must be against individual property. Some may claim that, we have always have property, or that civilization would collapse without property. I would say that we just haven’t tried it yet so we don’t really know and furthermore theft is immoral and so as a moral society we should reject it. Further, I never agreed to the other peoples ownership of things, why should this be forced on me. So all arguments to the contrary are bogus. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/97 "2013-05-07T18:39:06Z")
Even animals have ownership, they have territory. it’s what we naturally do. besides, when everyone owns a goat, who gets up in the middle of the night to care for it when it’s sick? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/98 "2013-05-07T18:47:27Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Even animals have ownership, they have territory. it’s what we naturally do. besides, when everyone owns a goat, who gets up in the middle of the night to care for it when it’s sick? The nanny of course. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/99 "2013-05-07T18:48:48Z")
I’m a bit surprised at the knee jerk reactions to the OP. Taxation does share a LOT of similarities with extortion, in particular extortion mechanisms like protection rackets. If a mafioso says you pay him a hundred dollars a week or your business gets wrecked, and the taxman says you pay him a thousand dollars a year or you go to jail, those are significant similarities. One cosmetic difference between the two is that in modern times, taxes are levied by democratically elected governments. Extortion by a majority approved entity is still extortion though. The only real difference between extortion and taxation is that governments provide services which are non excludable and have significant externalities - i.e if your government keeps an army and police force that brings peace, law, and order, the benefits of peace accrue to everyone, and it is fair that everyone pays to keep the army. So the “taxation is similar to extortion” argument is not a good argument for scrapping taxation. However, it is a very good argument for keeping taxation as low as it can be while still providing services which are clearly essential, non excludable, and provide significant externalities. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/100 "2013-05-07T18:49:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Even animals have ownership, they have territory. Animals also operate in groups in which group members are expected to contribute to the common good. Hence efforts to eliminate taxation go against the natural order. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=6)