# Taxation is no different than extortion. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704 "2013-05-07T15:08:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/121 "2013-05-07T19:47:09Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > But that’s kind of bizarre. Humans are not solitary hunters or scavengers. We evolved to live in groups. Humans who are not allowed to live in a group (or scavenge on the periphery of a group) tend not to survive very long. Humans evolved to live in small groups. Governments are an attempt at doing something a small group would not need to codify. Of the governing systems that have been tried, the most successful are the ones that focus on the individual as a unit, and private property as something that unit requires. Other systems have failed, and miserably so. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/122 "2013-05-07T19:47:28Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > But that’s kind of bizarre. Humans are not solitary hunters or scavengers. We evolved to live in groups. Humans who are not allowed to live in a group (or scavenge on the periphery of a group) tend not to survive very long. Right, hence the “necessary”. Living in a group means that the group places its interests before the individual’s. This includes restraining what the individual may do, and directing what he may think, believe, worship, or say. For the individual, society is a necessary evil, he needs it to survive, but its effects are not all beneficial to him. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/123 "2013-05-07T19:48:40Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Most economists believe that not every service should or even could be provided by the private sector. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/124 "2013-05-07T20:00:56Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Humans evolved to live in small groups. Governments are an attempt at doing something a small group would not need to codify. Note that the small groups humans evolved to live in have sky-high murder rates compared to what we’ve got now, some going as high as more than half the population dying via homicide. I’m pretty happy to not live in our natural state :). > [@](#): > > Of the governing systems that have been tried, the most successful are the ones that focus on the individual as a unit, and private property as something that unit requires. Other systems have failed, and miserably so. Indeed, the ones that focus on private property, **mediated through taxation** , are the ones that have succeeded best. Governments that go for minimal taxation don’t tend to work very well in our modern high-tech world, and by “high-tech” I mean highways. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/125 "2013-05-07T20:20:00Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > There is a definite difference between a contract you voluntarily signed with a homeowners association before moving into the association, and a country you were born into no? In both you have the option of leaving. Neither the HOA nor the government is keeping you by force. The fact that you cannot find another house or society to live in is not the fault of the HOA or the government. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/126 "2013-05-07T20:41:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s not hard. Fork over 25-50% of your income or else. Well, I believe it’s a bit harder than you think. Show me that you really needed that income, and how your life is worse for not having it. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/127 "2013-05-07T20:51:01Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > In both you have the option of leaving. Neither the HOA nor the government is keeping you by force. The fact that you cannot find another house or society to live in is not the fault of the HOA or the government. Mafia extortion doesn’t prevent you from leaving the country either. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/128 "2013-05-07T20:53:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Governments that go for minimal taxation don’t tend to work very well in our modern high-tech world, and by “high-tech” I mean highways. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/129 "2013-05-07T20:58:22Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Cite? Actually, null hypothesis is that they don’t work; if you think they do, show me an example of one. AFAICT, they’re all failed states–Somalia, Afghanistan under the Taliban, etc. If you can show me a state that prospers without state-funded infrastructure like highways, though, please do so. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/130 "2013-05-07T20:59:05Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Mafia extortion doesn’t prevent you from leaving the country either. Right, they’ll just kill you if they catch you. Which is similar to moving from one country to another in pretty much no way. ---
**Author:** ![mbetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@mbetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbetter)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/131 "2013-05-07T21:02:28Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Right, hence the “necessary”. Living in a group means that the group places its interests before the individual’s. This includes restraining what the individual may do, and directing what he may think, believe, worship, or say. For the individual, society is a necessary evil, he needs it to survive, but its effects are not all beneficial to him. Weakest definition of evil ever. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/132 "2013-05-07T21:09:13Z")
[quote=“septimus, post:72, topic:657704”] [LIST][li] I approve of Daddy Baboon extorting half the banana on his daughter’s behalf. That’s all folks; I’m just trying to help you understand the definition of “extort.”[/li][/QUOTE] I see that a lot from the big government lovers. We are all kids, and the government is the big daddy who knows better than us what’s good for us. ---
**Author:** ![babygoat666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@babygoat666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/babygoat666)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/133 "2013-05-07T21:09:56Z")
[QUOTE=msmith537] Most economists believe that not every service should or even could be provided by the private sector. [/QUOTE] > [@bldysabba](#): > > Cite? It should be intuitively obvious. The private sector’s sole purpose is directly at odds with the goal of collective bargaining. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/134 "2013-05-07T21:11:47Z")
> [@mbetter](#): > > Weakest definition of evil ever. What definition of evil? I didn’t give one. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/135 "2013-05-07T21:13:13Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Seriously? Even with the first 3 arguments gone, (which you didn’t refute, you just refuse to acknowledge them), I have another for you. > > You get actual protection for your taxes. Extortionists only protect you from themselves. The mafia protects you from other criminals (and punishes them) if you pay your protection money. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/136 "2013-05-07T21:22:04Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Some people need the services provided by taxation. Others need to contribute to the pot. Most need both. Maybe you’re familiar with the idea, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need:D s to Rich people–who presumably ought to be major contributors to that pot–need the services too. You might own blocks of rental properties or industrial parks but you also need “society”, in the form of courts, law enforcement, and education to uphold your property interests. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/137 "2013-05-07T21:22:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Actually, null hypothesis is that they don’t work; if you think they do, show me an example of one. AFAICT, they’re all failed states–Somalia, Afghanistan under the Taliban, etc. > > If you can show me a state that prospers without state-funded infrastructure like highways, though, please do so. If you can find my post which says government provides no services at all and should collect no taxes, please do so. > [@Marley23](#): > > Right, they’ll just kill you if they catch you. Which is similar to moving from one country to another in pretty much no way. So, if you move cities to get away from a local protection racket, you’re saying that they’ll come catch you and kill you? > [@babygoat666](#): > > It should be intuitively obvious. The private sector’s sole purpose is directly at odds with the goal of collective bargaining. Whut? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/138 "2013-05-07T21:24:30Z")
I love taxes. They help pay for my public parks, schools, roads, museums, government, postal workers, street signs, holidays, etc. Without taxes none of that may be possible. If taxation is extortion then I say extortion is a good thing ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/139 "2013-05-07T21:45:53Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > So, if you move cities to get away from a local protection racket, you’re saying that they’ll come catch you and kill you? If you’re trying to get out of paying them without their approval? Yes, that’s a recipe for getting your legs broke- it’s at least a risk you are taking. It’s in no way comparable to freely moving from one country to another. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/140 "2013-05-07T21:49:49Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Indeed, the ones that focus on private property, **mediated through taxation** , are the ones that have succeeded best. Governments that go for minimal taxation don’t tend to work very well in our modern high-tech world, and by “high-tech” I mean highways. It would be very easy to have minimal taxation if the government focused only on the proper functions of government–things like military, police, fire, and transportation. Every year, the IRS puts out a summary of the federal government’s revenues and spending. “National defense, veterans, and foreign affairs” category is 24% of the budget, and “Law enforcement and general government” is 2%. “Physical, human, and community development” (which includes transportation) is 8%, and interest on the debt is 6%. All those categories add up to 40%, or about $1.44 trillion out of a total budget of $3.6 trillion. In other words, if the government did only what it’s supposed to do, that year would have had a surplus of $860 billion, instead of a deficit of $1.3 trillion. Personal income taxes accounted for 30% of the government’s revenue–which means that we could reduce the total personal income tax burden by roughly 80% and still balance the budget. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=8)