# Taxation is no different than extortion. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704 "2013-05-07T15:08:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/141 "2013-05-07T21:54:54Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Well, I believe it’s a bit harder than you think. Show me that you really needed that income, and how your life is worse for not having it. This is a perfect illustration of Big Brother thinking. I don’t know whether you realize it, but what you’re really saying is that you believe that you should have control over how much of my money I get to keep. And you might possibly **allow** me to keep a little more **of my own money** _IF–AND ONLY IF_–I can demonstrate to your satisfaction that I have a legitimate use for my own property. ---
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/142 "2013-05-07T22:04:16Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > There is a definite difference between a contract you voluntarily signed with a homeowners association before moving into the association, and a country you were born into no? What taxes are you compelled to pay just for being born? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/143 "2013-05-07T22:05:51Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I love taxes. They help pay for my public parks, schools, roads, museums, government, postal workers, street signs, holidays, etc. Without taxes none of that may be possible. If taxation is extortion then I say extortion is a good thing “I like paying taxes. They buy me civilization.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/144 "2013-05-07T22:13:55Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > It would be very easy to have minimal taxation if the government focused only on the proper functions of government–things like military, police, fire, and transportation. It turns out other people have different ideas about the proper functions of government. In a democracy, they also get to have a say. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/145 "2013-05-07T22:16:41Z")
Even on this board people have different ideas about whether ‘services’ such as police and fire should be government or privatized, so declaring X to be the job of Government and Y not to be is pretty much a matter of opinion, not fact. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/146 "2013-05-07T22:18:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If you’re trying to get out of paying them without their approval? Yes, that’s a recipe for getting your legs broke- it’s at least a risk you are taking. It’s in no way comparable to freely moving from one country to another. Are you saying countries don’t impose exit costs on people who want to leave? Because they do. > [@Marley23](#): > > It turns out other people have different ideas about the proper functions of government. In a democracy, they also get to have a say. Sure, but are those ideas supportable by something more rigorous? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/147 "2013-05-07T22:20:08Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Are you saying countries don’t impose exit costs on people who want to leave? Do they kill and cripple people for trying to leave? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/148 "2013-05-07T22:21:08Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > This is a perfect illustration of Big Brother thinking. > > I don’t know whether you realize it, but what you’re really saying is that you believe that you should have control over how much of my money I get to keep. And you might possibly **allow** me to keep a little more **of my own money** _IF–AND ONLY IF_–I can demonstrate to your satisfaction that I have a legitimate use for my own property. That money has value only because “Big Brother” made it and maintains the system that makes it valuable, and you can only keep any of it because “Big Brother” stops everyone else from grabbing it. And the same goes for the rest of your property. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/149 "2013-05-07T22:32:15Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Even on this board people have different ideas about whether ‘services’ such as police and fire should be government or privatized, so declaring X to be the job of Government and Y not to be is pretty much a matter of opinion, not fact. I don’t agree that it’s (or should be) so much a matter of opinion. Whether something should be paid for by tax money or not can be looked at through the necessity and ‘[public goods](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good)’ framework. Two questions - 1) Is it necessary? 2) Is it a public(or quasi public) good? If so, taxation should pay for it. Sanitation, for instance, is a great place to put tax money. Tertiary healthcare is not. > [@Marley23](#): > > Do they kill and cripple people for trying to leave? Exit costs are exit costs. I’m saying the two things have many similarities, not that they are the same and should be treated as such. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/150 "2013-05-07T22:33:46Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > In other words, if the government did only what it’s supposed to do, that year would have had a surplus of $860 billion, instead of a deficit of $1.3 trillion. According to the preamble to the Constitution, one of the things the government is supposed to do is “promote the general welfare.” A general comment, not directed at anyone in this thread: it makes me physically ill to realize that some people think it’s more important for Mitt Romney to have $401 million rather than $400 million in the bank, than it is to use that million to literally make the difference between life and death for 100 people who can’t afford proper food, shelter, or medical care. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/151 "2013-05-07T22:47:29Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > A general comment, not directed at anyone in this thread: it makes me physically ill to realize that some people think it’s more important for Mitt Romney to have $401 million rather than $400 million in the bank, than it is to use that million to literally make the difference between life and death for 100 people who can’t afford proper food, shelter, or medical care. There’s plenty of people who think that if those 100 people can’t survive on their own, they deserve death. ---
**Author:** ![mbetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@mbetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbetter)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/152 "2013-05-07T22:54:46Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > What definition of evil? I didn’t give one. Right here: > [@](#): > > For the individual, society is a necessary evil, he needs it to survive, but its effects are not all beneficial to him. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/153 "2013-05-07T23:16:24Z")
Suppose I own and operate a shopping mall. It has a lot of operating costs, including paying for many amenities that attract shoppers. The steady stream of shoppers makes it a desirable place for many companies to set up shop, despite the fact that I make them sign contracts to pay me money in exchange for the right to do business in my mall. I have very little trouble attracting tenants who agree to my terms, but many other potential tenants don’t like my terms and take their business elsewhere. Some of my revenue goes toward making the mall a good place to do business, and the rest I spend however I please. One day, someone decides to set up one of those wagon-looking kiosks in the middle of a walkway and sell some crummy jewellery, all without my permission. I say, “Hey! You’re not allowed to do business within these walls without my permission. If you want my permission, you have to pay me. Otherwise, you have to find somewhere else to do business.” Is that extortion? ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/154 "2013-05-07T23:24:26Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > There’s plenty of people who think that if those 100 people can’t survive on their own, they deserve death. Well, up until they become one of that hundred. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/155 "2013-05-07T23:33:20Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > There is a definite difference between a contract you voluntarily signed with a homeowners association before moving into the association, and a country you were born into no? > Also, if it is imposed on you by the association, it IS still similar to extortion to the extent that any dues should only be for things that you cannot be excluded from, and that can only be properly carried out by the association. I am not making the case that public action is always unwarranted, only that the warrant be very clear. I have very little choice, since nearly any home I could buy would have a similar association. You get born into a country, but you don’t pay taxes until you would have an opportunity to leave. Sure it is inconvenient, but so is not buying a house anywhere near my work. And just like with the government, I use some of the benefits of the association but not all. > [@](#): > > They’re always extortion if there is a significant minority that opposes them. 100 people. 51 think that Coca Cola should be free for everybody. 49 don’t agree. Should the 49 pay for Coca Cola just because it’s a majority ruling? In California many taxes need super majorities. Why does the vote of a person voting no count for more than that of a person voting yes? Spending money, which is your example, does not. And what majority is to your liking? > [@](#): > > I have no idea how this is relevant. Taxation is not voluntary payment for consumption of a private good like petrol. That is why the petrol is a private good in the first place. Its benefit very clearly goes to you, hence you pay for it. > Taxation is enforced payment for consumption of a public good(in the economics sense of the term). Government does certain things that it thinks benefit everybody, but it _enforces_ payment from everybody. Therefore, there should be every effort to ensure that the goods/services provided by taxation meet the criteria under which this is valid i.e essential, with significant externalities. As I said the purchase of gas is not voluntary. Even if I chose to take public transportation I would still be purchasing gas indirectly. The price of gas has little to do with the benefit. In California we frequently suffer from artificial shortages caused by several refineries cutting back at the same time, and thus increasing the price of gas. We all pay more depending on the market, which also has little to do in the short term with the gas itself. In general the money I pay into Social Security is going to give more value than the money I pay for gas. Plus I don’t get to vote for the price of gas on the world market, I don’t get to vote on the policies of local refineries, I don’t get to vote for OPEC, and I don’t get to vote on the profit margins and salaries of oil company execs. I do pay a premium here for gas which is cleaner than normal gas, and in return the smog problem has almost vanished. That was a democratically imposed mandate, and that returns far more than the tax we pay for oil company shenanigans. I don’t consider either to be extortion, to make myself clear. Through the circumstances of living in our society we do a lot of stuff we’d rather not do. But at least we get to vote on our taxes. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/156 "2013-05-07T23:39:33Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Cite? What do you want me to cite for you? My Macro Econ 101 class from business school? Google John Maynard Keynes. Google Adam Smith for that matter. I don’t think there’s a single legitimate economist who doesn’t believe that government doesn’t have some role in the economy. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/157 "2013-05-07T23:53:09Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > What do you want me to cite for you? My Macro Econ 101 class from business school? Google John Maynard Keynes. Google Adam Smith for that matter. I don’t think there’s a single legitimate economist who doesn’t believe that government doesn’t have some role in the economy. That’s not what you said. Of course government has a role to play in the economy. That role is usually not delivery of services, unless you’re counting the military, police, courts and the like. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/158 "2013-05-07T23:56:47Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > It would be very easy to have minimal taxation if the government focused only on the proper functions of government–things like military, police, fire, and transportation. > > Every year, the IRS puts out a summary of the federal government’s revenues and spending. “National defense, veterans, and foreign affairs” category is 24% of the budget, and “Law enforcement and general government” is 2%. “Physical, human, and community development” (which includes transportation) is 8%, and interest on the debt is 6%. All those categories add up to 40%, or about $1.44 trillion out of a total budget of $3.6 trillion. > > In other words, if the government did only what it’s supposed to do, that year would have had a surplus of $860 billion, instead of a deficit of $1.3 trillion. Typical example of anti-democratic thinking. Every one of the horrible things the government does which you don’t believe in got voted in by a majority of our elected representatives and have not gotten repealed. Back 50 years ago when Medicare was passed medical care was relatively primitive but cheap. I’m looking forward to getting covered (and I paid for it) and I’m glad that my 97 year old father in law has good coverage for a good quality of life. I’m happy we’re spending money on research. Sure there is noise in the system, but I think the will of the people should trump the opinions of a tax hating minority. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/159 "2013-05-07T23:59:11Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > This is a perfect illustration of Big Brother thinking. > > I don’t know whether you realize it, but what you’re really saying is that you believe that you should have control over how much of my money I get to keep. And you might possibly **allow** me to keep a little more **of my own money** _IF–AND ONLY IF_–I can demonstrate to your satisfaction that I have a legitimate use for my own property. Being taxed for the stuff you like is just as much extortion as being taxed for the stuff you don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704/160 "2013-05-08T00:11:31Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > I don’t know whether you realize it, but what you’re really saying is that you believe that you should have control over how much of my money I get to keep. And you might possibly **allow** me to keep a little more **of my own money** _IF–AND ONLY IF_–I can demonstrate to your satisfaction that I have a legitimate use for my own property. That’s the way the Founders intended it to be: > [@](#): > > “All the Property that is necessary to a Man, for the Conservation of the Individual and the Propagation of the Species, is his natural Right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all Property superfluous to such purposes is the Property of the Publick, who, by their Laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other Laws dispose of it, whenever the Welfare of the Publick shall demand such Disposition. He that does not like civil Society on these Terms, let him retire and live among Savages. He can have no right to the benefits of Society, who will not pay his Club towards the Support of it.” _~~[Benjamin Franklin, letter to Robert Morris, 1793](http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch16s12.html)_ If you don’t like the Constitution, just say so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxation-is-no-different-than-extortion/657704.md?page=9)