Taxation of religious institutions

You are correct, I have no idea about storefront churches in Queens. But storefront churches are not exactly known for being affluent! If there is a church operating out of a storefront for a long time, one may (I believe) presume they do some good for some portion of the community or they would have gone out of business long ago.

As I said above, I am not concerned with a few nickel and dime operations skimming money or being a “fake” church without paying taxes. That is going to happen and worrying about small potatoes like that will drive one nuts! I am concerned about only two different forms of churches who are tax exempt. The first is a political machine disguised as a church (I have a real and personal hatred for these charlatans because they have stolen from and brainwashed some individuals I care about- promoting a political agenda and assuring the uninformed that the only way to be a true believer is to support Republican issues!!) Some of these so called churches also promote racism, sexism, and other issues that are contrary to human rights in my opinion. They are making the ultimate appeal to authority saying God wants you to vote for [e.g.: Donald J. Trump] or against [e,g,: same sex marriage]. The very few I am familiar with are remarkably gifted at saying things that can later be denied or written off as a misunderstanding. They are not churches in any traditional sense and I would deny them a tax exempt status if that was an option for me. Period. (*)

The other group is the Prosperity Hustler churches (which are sometimes also the racist political machines mentioned above!) They rob senile old ladies out of their last few dollars to enrich themselves and they are disgusting con-artists by any measure. I even resent the often emotionally unstable, self medicating, needy people who are so easily fleeced by these selfish and transparently greedy churches. If one person owns more assets than the entire net worth of the entire congregation – and people are still sending in money. I have a hard time believing any of those huge media giant churches is genuine or sincere. I would tax them with great vengeance and furious anger if given the power to do so.

Every other Church, Mosque, Temple, or house of worship gets a pass in my book. UNLESS they are guilty of one of my two pet peevs above (or if they break actual laws like financing terrorism or human trafficking).

I was raised Catholic myself and my father graduated from a Catholic College/University (not sure if it had moved up to University by the time he graduated or if it was still a college). We had priests at our home pretty frequently and they ALL had taken a vow of poverty. Our particular parish was middling in size, but they supported many priests and many nuns, who mostly ran the school. I do not believe they had much say in how the offerings were expended. Catholics are by nature, temperament, and habit taught to defer to higher authority and in my experience they treated every congregational decision as if they were speaking for God Himself. They knew the numbers, reported the numbers and did what the Diocese said to do with any surplus or shortage. It was not unusual at all for larger parishes to support struggling parishes and I do believe the six or more priests that we had on staff did work at smaller, struggling churches in addition to their duties at the home parish. The pastors were too low on the totem pole to make those decisions, they were made at the Diocese level.

When the priests visited our home, they would play chess with my father and discuss philosophies I could not understand (secular concepts and how the church viewed XYZ). They pestered my parents into having the High School seniors have six week “catechism classes” in our home almost every year. The point of all that detail is that the pastors themselves did not make the decisions as far as I could tell. They would often work my dad over for small level creature comforts. I specifically remember my father telling one such priest that if he would be quite until the end of the game, and if the KC Chiefs covered the spread, my father would take the priest downtown and buy him a pair of Florsheim shoes next week. As a side note, smoking, drinking, and gambling was a petty offense in our home (a venial sin at most) – from the pulpit, I believe they were less favorably viewed. But they all knew they could count on my dad in tough days if they flattered his intellect and overlooked his questionable personal habits. In fact, gambling may have been seen as not sinning at all as long as the family didn’t suffer for it (if you only gambled what you could afford to lose it wasn’t a sin at all).

Remind me to tell you about a maternal uncle who . . . . oh, the Catholic Church- so unaffected by pesky rules that are better left in the rule books than in life itself! (Having nothing to do with anything at all related to the topic being discussed – every now and then one would meet a Hispanic with a strong Spanish accent who quoted Scripture with an Irish brogue- a dead give away he or she was Catholic and studied under Father O’Malley!)

In my (limited as is constantly being pointed out) experience, most churches have four or five different groups of “counters” and there is a clever little page they mostly use that you enter the numbers into in very specific rows and columns. To balance out, the totals and sub-totals must match both vertically and horizontally (some churches have a more complex system with two different pages that measure the same figures in different ways). Each team is usually at least three people who are not related – and they like to place those with differing perspectives on the same team. (For example when three or four church ladies who are good friends serve together – sometimes the cash giving seems light, but the “Auxiliary Fund” might be a bit - - - over represented compared to a typical week. Or when a certain bunch counts together, missions is surprisingly well funded that week and by damn, they are all on the Missions board!) To take any temptation away from human volunteers, it is highly encouraged to contribute by check, in an envelop with your assigned number on it and a little graph on the back saying how much you want to contribute to each fund and what the total is (and there are often arithmetic errors made by the parishioners themselves) so ten dollars for missions, and ten dollars for Vacation Bible School (Summer Camp), and ten dollars for the Women’s Auxiliary, and twenty dollars for the General Fund. Total: $50.00.

If there is a discrepancy, one or two of the counters discreetly asks the member if they want to change their funding options or add more money to cover all of the listed causes. Even if you or a trusted family member is not on any of the counting committees, they watch each other like hawks watch wounded rabbits! Pettiness and jealousy are not unheard of in these realms, and if there is even a small, insignificant error someone in the congregation (in the last church I sincerely attended it was a guy named Karl) would make sure EVERYONE knew there was an accounting error and the whole issue would be reviewed at a voters meeting.

Lastly on this matter, the yearly budget was comprehensive; listing a projected income from contributions, renting out the buildings, special annual fundraisers, etc. Members were asked to make a commitment for the next Fifty-Two weeks of at least $ ?.?? to support these projections. Then all the programs were listed and a cost was assigned to them. Often, childcare options were restricted to Summers when school was out so we could fund something else (the worst thing possible for that ministry was to have an affluent or influential member drop by the building on a Tuesday afternoon and see a paid staff member watching over zero children! The next year that program got zilch!).

The church always forecast enormous growth (contributions from new/future members- $20,000). So the budget always broke around Fall and then the end of year stuff had to compete for the remaining money based upon reality. (The opposite was true in Texas- they underestimated income and were very sparse in planning so by the end of the next fiscal year there was a surplus that was often used to support a struggling church-- or launch a new one.)

Real last thing from the quote above:
The budget committee is different from the counting groups. I did it myself twice, but with a lot of input from others. I started with the projected money on hand, added traditional giving and guaranteed income from leases, etc. I looked at what we spent over the last few years and drew up a proposal with first rate graphics and paragraphs edited down by my ex-wife so there was nothing in there that was not pertinent (where is she now, you ask yourself ?!?). Then the special interest groups start claiming territory and making speeches about the importance of [their pet project] Christian Education, Foreign Missions, Vacation Bible School, Mommy and Me Classes, the Men’s Retreat, the Auxiliary Fund, and others. I would warn them that budgeting for things we could not afford would lead to sadness and disappointment. They would determine to have an Evangelism class and bring in new members. The Pastor would remind them that new members usually were not big contributors until they were well established. The budget would pass with contingency plans for the inevitable failure and then the counters would watch each other over every dime for the next fifty-two weeks. Hard to believe I left all that behind, isn’t it?

Yes, this is exactly what I was getting at. It is great for a large corporation which wishes to do a lot of good, and they get to advertise “We raised X amount of dollars for charity!!” even if a smaller slice actually reaches the intended populations. I also understand it is good business to be a big contributor, and to raise money from outside the company because it is a sure fire way to snag promotions (I never was in such a position myself).

My affluent friends who do similar things with their own foundations are also adding a layer of administration and presumably expense. But until they become large entities that require full time management they are often staffed by unpaid volunteer board members out of the founders home or already existing office. So they are adding to the cause for no great expense unless they become successful (and if they bring in a lot of money each year, it is probably worth paying for the staff).

(*) An example of the kind of place I am talking about is a place where if I say: "I would never vote for Donald Trump or any of his ilk! They will reply: “Why do you hate God so much?” Which is followed by pity and an offer to pray for me; when I do not ‘repent’ for opposing their hero I am scorned. I am fine and hold no personal animosity for being disagreed with-- but I hate that they are brain washing gullible believers who are sincere and just want to do the right thing. Abusing their trust and simplicity is the gravest matter for me.

I think you are very focused in this conversation on the idea that you believe most churches are not scamming - which is fine , but has nothing to do really with whether most churches are transparent about their finances and whether the congregation has a say in how the money was spent.

Because when I said this

no financial information at all was shared with the congregation and the pastor made all the decisions.

I wasn’t talking about the pastor dipping into the collection plate to enrich himself * (although that situation would be included in my statement). I’m talking about the Rosary Society has raised $5000 and wants to establish an award for graduates of the parish school but Msgr. Soandso decides it will instead be spent on renovating a meeting room. Or he decides to spend tens of thousands of the collection plate proceeds to air-condition the church without consulting the congregation.

* although I always belonged to parishes staffed by diocesan priests, who did not take a vow of poverty and were paid a salary set by the diocese, not the congregation - and some of whom were wealthy due to inheritances. They never hit parishioners up for “creature comforts” - there was no need to. Most of them lived at least as well as the parishioners between the room and board supplied and the salary )

I still don’t buy this notion that churches are so above board that they shouldn’t be scrutinized. “Trust but verify” is a good policy, but @Temporary_Name seems to be advocating for “Trust and don’t verify” based merely on anecdotes and assumptions. I’m not even talking about the broader tax-exempt argument, just the double-standard where secular charities are required to file for their tax-exempt status and open their books to the public, while churches don’t have to do either, thus giving them privileged status, and we’re just supposed to take their word that they’re not abusing that privilege.

Tax-exemption is a social contract, and opening the books is the price/consideration charitable organizations pay for that privilege. Anyone advocating for churches should want open books to be a requirement, since it would show how many are operating responsibly (hopefully most of them), while exposing the few who aren’t. Advocating the opposite just makes it look like there’s something to hide.