# Taxes and American prosperity/middle class/debt 100yrs. ago. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 1, 2009, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-and-american-prosperity-middle-class-debt-100yrs-ago/487934 "2009-03-01T23:49:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-and-american-prosperity-middle-class-debt-100yrs-ago/487934/1 "2009-03-01T23:49:30Z")
A (more) conservative friend (than I) sent me [this](http://www.goodcitizen.org/WWLA%20Book/Chapters/1-Issues/Economic%20Issues%20-%20List%20of%20Taxes%20email.htm). I don’t know why. > [@](#): > > Some of the Taxes Americans Pay Each Year > > If you don’t read it all, go to the ending then you may want to. Isn’t this amazing? > > Accounts Receivable Tax > > Building Permit Tax > > Capital Gains Tax > > CDL license Tax > > Cigarette Tax > > Corporate Income Tax > > Court Fines (indirect taxes) > > Dog License Tax > > Federal Income Tax > > Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA) > > Fishing License Tax > > Food License Tax > > Fuel permit tax > > Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon) > > Hunting License Tax > > Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money) > > Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax) > > IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax) > > Liquor Tax > > Local Income Tax > > Luxury Taxes > > Marriage License Tax > > Medicare Tax > > Property Tax > > Real Estate Tax > > Septic Permit Tax > > Service Charge Taxes > > Social Security Tax > > Road Usage Taxes (Truckers) > > Sales Taxes > > Recreational Vehicle Tax > > Road Toll Booth Taxes > > School Tax > > State Income Tax > > State Unemployment Tax (SUTA) > > Telephone federal excise tax > > Telephone federal universal service fee tax > > Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes > > Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax > > Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax > > Telephone state and local tax > > Telephone usage charge tax > > Toll Bridge Taxes > > Toll Tunnel Taxes > > Traffic Fines (indirect taxation) > > Trailer registration tax > > Utility Taxes > > Vehicle License Registration Tax > > Vehicle Sales Tax > > Watercraft registration Tax > > Well Permit Tax > > Workers Compensation Tax > > COMMENTS: Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago and our nation was the most prosperous in the world, had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world and Mom stayed home to raise the kids. What the hell happened? There’s also [a poem](http://forums.cnet.com/5208-6130_102-0.html?forumID=50&threadID=330350&messageID=2979508). Do these taxes exist? Some of them seem like stretches, like they’re taking fees that one has to pay for, say, using a toll road, and calling it a tax. Also, was the United States “the most prosperous in the world, had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world”? It was my understanding that the U.S. was something of a power among peers until WWII. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-and-american-prosperity-middle-class-debt-100yrs-ago/487934/2 "2009-03-02T00:02:29Z")
> [@gitfiddle](#): > > Also, was the United States “the most prosperous in the world, had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world”? The national debt in 1909 appears to have been about 2.6 billion dollars. From [here](http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/year1909_0.html), apparently sourced from [here](http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/past_years.html). ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-and-american-prosperity-middle-class-debt-100yrs-ago/487934/3 "2009-03-02T00:55:27Z")
They are also wrong in stating that “Mom stayed home to raise the kids.” Well, upper-class women stayed home and paid a nanny to raise the kids. Lower class women worked their ass off AND raised the kids AND often worked in factories and/or took in piecework and/or ran the farm. Check out the book [The Way We Never Were](http://www.amazon.com/Way-We-Never-Were-Nostalgia/dp/0465090974/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235955218&sr=1-1) by Stephanie Coontz. ---
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-and-american-prosperity-middle-class-debt-100yrs-ago/487934/4 "2009-03-02T01:16:40Z")
> [@MLS](#): > > They are also wrong in stating that “Mom stayed home to raise the kids.” Well, upper-class women stayed home and paid a nanny to raise the kids. Lower class women worked their ass off AND raised the kids AND often worked in factories and/or took in piecework and/or ran the farm. > > Check out the book [The Way We Never Were](http://www.amazon.com/Way-We-Never-Were-Nostalgia/dp/0465090974/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235955218&sr=1-1) by Stephanie Coontz. Yep. That seems like an obvious sticking point. I hadn’t considered that. I was just thinking of the obvious argument that a family with two working parents can still be a good family (as mine was, I think)…along with the fact that women couldn’t even vote in 1909 and still, I believe, don’t get paid as much as men in many cases for the same work. So, what about prosperity? and all those supposed taxes? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-and-american-prosperity-middle-class-debt-100yrs-ago/487934/5 "2009-03-02T01:19:34Z")
> [@gitfiddle](#): > > Do these taxes exist? Some of them seem like stretches, like they’re taking fees that one has to pay for, say, using a toll road, and calling it a tax. I don’t doubt that all of those taxes exist in at least some places in the USA. The reasons why they didn’t exist a hundred years ago are obvious, at least in some cases. Septic permit tax? There were no septic tanks. Vehicle registration taxes? There were almost no vehicles back then. Bridges and tunnels? There were a lot fewer. It is true, though, that government control over most things has expanded greatly. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-and-american-prosperity-middle-class-debt-100yrs-ago/487934/6 "2009-03-02T01:35:22Z")
All that “prosperity?” Please. Things we consider routine now weren’t even thought of 100 years ago. As was said earlier, no Workers’ Compensation tax? Yep. No workers’ comp, either. You got hurt on the job, gee, tough cheeze for you. I don’t know what Federal Unemployment Tax is, that sure isn’t a deduction on my paycheck. I do pay state unemployment tax, but then when I was unemployed, I got some cash from the state, too. A hundred years ago, golly, too bad. Kids are gonna be hungry this month. Some of the items in the list are outright ridiculous. Court fines are not a tax. And I’m sure that courts throughout our history have imposed fines. Nothing new. As far as I know, there is no “Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money).” I don’t even know what that means, but my sister and I paid no tax on our father’s estate, not that there was much there to tax, and my husband paid no tax on his mother’s estate. Perhaps they mean that if my father’s estate had $150.00 in the bank, and before the estate was distributed it paid a penny or so in interest, I suppose that might have been taxable. It would have had to be a whopping big estate before it mattered, though, and in any case that’s the same case as income tax, not a separate item. 'Tis a silly message. Pay it no mind. ---
**Author:** ![RingsOfPylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3da27b/32.png) [@RingsOfPylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RingsOfPylon)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-and-american-prosperity-middle-class-debt-100yrs-ago/487934/7 "2009-03-02T01:55:16Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I don’t doubt that all of those taxes exist in at least some places in the USA. The reasons why they didn’t exist a hundred years ago are obvious, at least in some cases. Septic permit tax? There were no septic tanks. Vehicle registration taxes? There were almost no vehicles back then. Bridges and tunnels? There were a lot fewer. > > It is true, though, that government control over most things has expanded greatly. Whoa there, Nelly. I have a 140-year-old house with a septic tank, homemade of concrete, that is at least 100 years old. Still functioning just fine, thank you. No taxes on it, so be quiet and don’t give them any ideas. 🙂 There were rather primitive, first generation automobiles 100 years ago. And, certainly their were wagons, both for private use and livery. Many of the bridges in tunnels in NYC were built in the late 1800s. I’m sure it’s the same in other places. I know it hardly seems like it has been 100 years since those things came into being. Where DOES the time go? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-and-american-prosperity-middle-class-debt-100yrs-ago/487934/8 "2009-03-02T02:18:36Z")
Piffle. Every fee is not a tax. You pay a marriage license fee which is probably pretty close to the clerical cost of handling your paperwork. Unless you’re Larry King, you pay it once and you’re done. Luxury tax? Never paid it. They’re counting school tax twice, since it’s part of property tax. The average American pays maybe on 1/4 the items on that list. It might be more instructive to list the benefits that we get because of the taxes- roads, meat inspection, drug testing, unemployment benefits, SS benefits, etc. ---
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-and-american-prosperity-middle-class-debt-100yrs-ago/487934/9 "2009-03-02T02:22:21Z")
In trying to find statistics on “prosperity” and the “largest middle class,” I’m stuck. Where exactly would one go to find a comparison of economies in, say, 1910? Also, isn’t the New Deal usually attributed with the creation of the “world’s largest middle class”? or is that just something that liberals like to claim? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-and-american-prosperity-middle-class-debt-100yrs-ago/487934/10 "2009-03-02T02:41:01Z")
In 1909, one would have to put farmers in the “middle class” for the statement in the link to be even arguably true, unless they are just asserting raw numbers, in which case it’s silly to make that comparison at all. ---
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-and-american-prosperity-middle-class-debt-100yrs-ago/487934/11 "2009-03-02T13:11:11Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > In 1909, one would have to put farmers in the “middle class” for the statement in the link to be even arguably true, unless they are just asserting raw numbers, in which case it’s silly to make that comparison at all. Why? Was there a larger middle class somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-and-american-prosperity-middle-class-debt-100yrs-ago/487934/12 "2009-03-02T13:59:18Z")
> [@gitfiddle](#): > > Why? Was there a larger middle class somewhere? Certain parts of Europe were more densely populated, more urban, by then, reflecting a shift from a primarily farming economy to an industrial economy. America, while it had its industrial areas, still had the vast majority of its states relatively sparsely populated, with an agrarian emphasis. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-and-american-prosperity-middle-class-debt-100yrs-ago/487934/13 "2009-03-02T14:04:18Z")
One hundred years ago the only countries larger than the U.S. were China, India, and Russia: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_population\_in\_1907](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_in_1907) Hence there were no reasonably well off countries with a larger population than the U.S. at that point. If you assume the U.S. had approximately the same proportion of middle-class people as other reasonably well off countries, then the U.S. had the largest middle class at the time, even though the U.S. wasn’t on average richer than a number of other countries. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-and-american-prosperity-middle-class-debt-100yrs-ago/487934/14 "2009-03-02T14:04:36Z")
We’ve taxed strange things in history. In England in the 19th century there were taxes on “land, income, the practice of law, newspaper advertisements, glass, candles, beer, malt carriages, menservants, coats of arms, newspapers, paper, bricks, stone, coal, windows, corn, soap, horses, dogs, salt, sugar, raisins, tea, coffee, tobacco, playing cards, timber, silk…” (From What Jane Austen Ate and Charles Dickens Knew). The Romans taxed beards. Economies worked differently in the 19th century. Tariffs were a much larger part of the federal government’s income. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-and-american-prosperity-middle-class-debt-100yrs-ago/487934/15 "2009-03-02T16:31:45Z")
No liquor tax? So what was the Whiskey Rebellion all about?