# Taxes are Theft **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 20, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749 "2010-04-20T15:12:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/281 "2010-04-21T22:27:04Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > It sucks that we had to buy a house further away than we wanted, but like I said, our system does not reward responsible behaviour. There is no incentive for me to do the right thing. Then why do you keep doing the “right thing?” You’ve presented yourself as very virtuous in comparison to people who don’t plan ahead, freeload, don’t pay taxes and so on, and yet if those people have it so great, why don’t you follow their lead? I agree that the theft argument is off-base. It’s arguably hypocritical to use the services, but it’s not theft. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/282 "2010-04-21T22:33:21Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I’m sure someone else has expressed this view by now, but; > > The use of public assets by those who consider taxes to be theft, is theft. Here, one more time: I play a lot of volleyball. I think when people “carry” the ball they are cheating And it is in fact a rule that you are not allowed to “carry” the ball. I really hate lazy volleys, if you can’t volley, just step back and bump the ball. But a lot of leagues have started to relax the rule to the point that people can chuck up anything short of catching the ball. I still think they are cheating. But I don’t get any extra points for not-carrying the ball. I am stuck playing by the rules we are using, and my team expects me to play by those rules as well. So unfortunately I end up carrying the ball a lot. Am I a cheater? No, I am playing by the rules. I can advocate (and whine) about crappy rules, but until they are changed, I am not a cheater, and you are not logical. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/283 "2010-04-21T22:39:03Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Am I a cheater? No, I am playing by the rules. I can advocate (and whine) about crappy rules, but until they are changed, I am not a cheater, and you are not logical. So do the rules say you have to pay taxes? If the rules determine what is or is not cheating, it is reasonable to conclude they also determine what is or is not theft. Since taxes are legal (the ‘rules’), they are not theft. Your rules, your logic. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/284 "2010-04-21T22:57:23Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > It might, the problem is that you’d be amazed how common that is now. When I went through culinary school, 9 of 10 kids had parents in the restaurant business. When I went through engineering 9 of of 10 had parents that were engineers. Of my friends that are doctors, nurses, teachers, wanna guess how many have parents that are the same or similar? Make a probability estimate based on anecdotal evidence about people I don’t know? I’ll pass, thanks. > [@](#): > > What I’m proposing would certainly suck for those at the bottom, but frankly, life sucks at the bottom no matter what. And it wouldn’t do much for those at the top. The amount of extra suck you’re creating isn’t matched or exceeded by any benefit that I can see. In fact, the suck will quickly extend to touch the people who might be benefiting in the short term. Sure, you’ll (maybe) have more money in your pocket for the first few years of “pay your share” taxation. I’m not sure how valuable that money will be with the subsequent economic upheavals to come. Everything will be more expensive, crime will increase, property values drop… let the good times roll. > [@](#): > > So what about that meaty middle chunk. The Real Americans (c). All Americans are real Americans. > [@](#): > > And we’re back to extortion. You can slap on a stop-thought label if you like, but that won’t avoid the reality. The bottom rung of society, criminals and addicts, are not recognizing their drag on society and politely committing suicide, nor in the name of modern political correctness are the rest of us free to hunt them for sport, so they’re going to do what they have to to survive. > [@](#): > > You’re actually convincing me that I’m simply better off either putting that money into fortifying my house. Or putting that money into more police. As you wish. > [@](#): > > Okay, so you need more money, and more government intervention. Do you see a theme here? No, I’m not asking for more. Possibly a shifting of current governmental priorities so education gets a bigger chunk of tax revenue. The amount of intervention is actually far less than what you proposed - taking children from deemed-irresponsible parents in larger numbers and such. > [@](#): > > We have crime, why? Because we need more money and more government intervention. If you’re going to make up answers to your own questions, at least pick plausible ones. > [@](#): > > Oh, and that government regulation is going to require more manpower, and that’s expensive, so you’re going to need more money. As opposed to the gargantuan expansion of the IRS needed to compute every citizen’s “fair share” of taxes, based on an arcane calculation involving what roads they travel (by car and foot), which sewer lines they befoul, how many times police and firefighters have been (or might be) called to their residence, multiplied by the population density of their neighborhood divided by the total area of paved surfaces? > [@](#): > > Oh god that would be so nice. Unfortunately we’re stuck with a public school system that isn’t helping as much as you’d like it to. I think there’s room for improvement, but my overall satisfaction isn’t low. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/285 "2010-04-22T01:59:26Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Heh. Fat chance that this is true. You are in the wrong forum to call me a liar, bub. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/286 "2010-04-22T02:00:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > In the US, all taxation is voluntary, so no, no kernel of truth. This is an idiotic use of the word “voluntary.” If I point a gun at your head and say “your money or your life,” then you giving me your money is of course perfectly voluntary, right? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/287 "2010-04-22T02:03:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Taxes are like rent. They are the rent you pay for living in a country and for receiving the benfits. That’s the deal. You are not entitled to live in a country and receive the services rent free. Not paying taxes is freeloading. Capitalists are supposed to be opposed to freeloading. > > Taxes are also _voluntary_ in a democracy. They are not imposed ON us, they are agreed upon BY us. > > If you don’t want to honor the contracts of a democracy, then you need to fin another place to live. Almost half of all Americans don’t pay a cent in U.S. federal income tax, and many pay negative taxes (i.e, they receive refundable credits). Are they freeloading? You like to focus on “rich” people that don’t want to pay as much as they currently do in taxes, but you never say anything about the millions of people that actually don’t pay anything in taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/288 "2010-04-22T02:06:02Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Almost half of all Americans don’t pay a cent in U.S. federal income tax… Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/289 "2010-04-22T02:16:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Cite? Someone else posted a link upthread. This is a common number that’s been circulating the intarwebz lately (I think it’s actually 43% or thereabouts). ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/290 "2010-04-22T02:53:01Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > This is an idiotic use of the word “voluntary.” If I point a gun at your head and say “your money or your life,” then you giving me your money is of course perfectly voluntary, right? It is if you are free to live elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/291 "2010-04-22T03:07:25Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Someone else posted a link upthread. This is a common number that’s been circulating the intarwebz lately (I think it’s actually 43% or thereabouts). When you specific “federal income tax,” you’re obviously leaving out a lot of the truth and engaging in weaseltalk. Almost all capable adults pay some tax. It’s just that not all tax is federal income tax. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/292 "2010-04-22T03:09:18Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Almost half of all Americans don’t pay a cent in U.S. federal income tax, and many pay negative taxes (i.e, they receive refundable credits). Are they freeloading? Do they pay other taxes, like sales taxes and property taxes and various governmental fees and such? > [@](#): > > You like to focus on “rich” people that don’t want to pay as much as they currently do in taxes, but you never say anything about the millions of people that actually don’t pay anything in taxes. If they do pay taxes other than income tax, then it’s fair to say your second paragraph doesn’t match your first, wot? It’s interesting how often “doesn’t pay anything in income taxes” (or the even more restrictive “doesn’t pay anything in federal income taxes”) morphs into “doesn’t pay anything in taxes”. I’m just doing my part to point out examples of slippery reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/293 "2010-04-22T03:10:12Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > INCOME TAXES, not taxes. When you see on the news that X% of people pay Y% of income taxes, while Z% pay W%, remember they’re talking about income taxes. Not property taxes, not sales tax, not social security tax, not medicare. Everybody with a job pays 7% of their income straight into social security, with no deductions allowed. And employers add another 7%, so that’s 14%.. If someone isn’t paying income taxes then chances are they are getting an “earned” income check which wipes out the other taxes. Getting back to my earlier point, I get my labor hours taxed but lower income people do not. There is no reason why their labor cannot be accessed directly. There are programs in my city that require an exchange of labor in return for various social programs. Labor hours are labor hours and we should all kick in on some level. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/294 "2010-04-22T03:17:13Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > This is an idiotic use of the word “voluntary.” If I point a gun at your head and say “your money or your life,” then you giving me your money is of course perfectly voluntary, right? In the sense that they are levide by vote of the persons whom we theoretically choose to do so, yes, voluntary is accurate. In a democracy, the proper analogy would be, “I will use the facilities at my whim, but when it comes time to ante up my annual membership fee, I will piss and moan about how high a cost it is, and that I’ve never used the ladies’ locker room or the sauna so it isn’t _fai-ai-air_ to charge me a fee that includes them.” Now if you want to make a case that our so-called representatives are more interested in hanging on to power and doing what ensures they stay there, are owed favors, and have their pockets suitably lined with pelf, than in representing their constituents, or that budgets include a lot of waste, or that some things are not appropriately government expenditures, maybe we might have a legitimate discussion on the merits. But your attitude is akin to the man who killed his parents and then demandd the court’s mercy because he was an orphan. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/295 "2010-04-22T03:21:24Z")
Actually our tax rate is too low. We have a bad deficit which can only be addressed with greater revenue. We have to get our corporations to pay again. Many of them make billions while actually getting billions more back from the American people. Time to act like adults and deal with our problems in a way that actually fixes them. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/296 "2010-04-22T03:25:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If someone isn’t paying income taxes then chances are they are getting an “earned” income check which wipes out the other taxes. _All_ the other taxes? A quick read of the list [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sales_taxes_in_the_United_States) suggest 6% is a pretty typical amount for a state sales tax. Cigarettes have special taxes ([pdf file](http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/cigarette.pdf), median tax per pack: $1.18) as does gasoline ([pdf file](http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/upload/January_2010_gasoline_and_diesel_summary_pages.pdf), 18.4 cents Fed, average 18.5 cents per state) and such. I suppose some people are getting all of this back, there are some working poor who don’t smoke or drive and such. I rather doubt it’s 43%. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/297 "2010-04-22T03:34:12Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > _All_ the other taxes? A quick read of the list [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sales_taxes_in_the_United_States) suggest 6% is a pretty typical amount for a state sales tax. Cigarettes have special taxes ([pdf file](http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/cigarette.pdf), median tax per pack: $1.18) as does gasoline ([pdf file](http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/upload/January_2010_gasoline_and_diesel_summary_pages.pdf), 18.4 cents Fed, average 18.5 cents per state) and such. > > I suppose some people are getting all of this back, there are some working poor who don’t smoke or drive and such. I rather doubt it’s 43%. I’m not sure where you came up with 43% but if you want to add up all the taxes then they would be weighed against subsidized housing, food stamps and other welfare amenities. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/298 "2010-04-22T03:40:25Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Actually our tax rate is too low. We have a bad deficit which can only be addressed with greater revenue. We have to get our corporations to pay again. Many of them make billions while actually getting billions more back from the American people. Time to act like adults and deal with our problems in a way that actually fixes them. What? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/299 "2010-04-22T03:51:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’m not sure where you came up with 43% Well, our buddy Rand Rover, who was quoting somebody else, who may have been making it up. It sounds absurdly high, doesn’t it? > [@](#): > > but if you want to add up all the taxes then they would be weighed against subsidized housing, food stamps and other welfare amenities. Well, what’s the cost to society if all of these are withdrawn? More crime, drug addiction, panhandling? I understand how tempting it is to make some kind of morality argument about bootstraps and junk, but the minuscule tax revenue you’d end up getting from these people is probably not nearly enough to cover the costs of driving them to desperation. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/300 "2010-04-22T03:54:15Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > In a democracy, the proper analogy would be, "I will use the facilities at my whim, but when it comes time to ante up my annual membership fee, I will piss and moan about how high a cost it is… No, that is a bad analogy, as has been pointed out several times. It may even been a strawman. Those of us pissing and moaning have ALREADY paid our annual membership fee, and will continue to do so. And because we don’t want to go to jail, we’ll continue to pay the fee voluntarily. What we are actually pissing and moaning about are the people that AREN’T paying the annual membership fee, who also seem to be the same people pissing in the pool. And when we say that we’d like to switch from income taxes to user fees, we’re told that more people will break into our houses. We are also pissing and moaning because the other members (the ones not paying the membership fee) get to vote, and have no problem asking for more benefits, that increase the annual fee. And why should they have a problem, they’re not paying for it. And if we don’t give them more benefits, we risk more violence. > [@gonzomax](#): > > Actually our tax rate is too low. We have a bad deficit which can only be addressed with greater revenue. We have to get our corporations to pay again. Many of them make billions while actually getting billions more back from the American people. Time to act like adults and deal with our problems in a way that actually fixes them. Couldn’t we reduce spending? Or at least stop spending more? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749.md?page=16)