# Taxes are Theft **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 20, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749 "2010-04-20T15:12:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/301 "2010-04-22T03:57:30Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > What we are actually pissing and moaning about are the people that AREN’T paying the annual membership fee, who also seem to be the same people pissing in the pool. And when we say that we’d like to switch from income taxes to user fees, we’re told that more people will break into our houses. If you’re going to willfully misunderstand and mischaracterize my arguments, at least put on some smileys. Better yet, don’t willfully misunderstand and mischaracterize my arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/302 "2010-04-22T04:14:25Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, our buddy Rand Rover, who was quoting somebody else, who may have been making it up. It sounds absurdly high, doesn’t it? > > Well, what’s the cost to society if all of these are withdrawn? More crime, drug addiction, panhandling? I understand how tempting it is to make some kind of morality argument about bootstraps and junk, but the minuscule tax revenue you’d end up getting from these people is probably not nearly enough to cover the costs of driving them to desperation. It has nothing to do with morality and nothing about my post suggested it. My point is that we should tax labor hours across the economic spectrum. For some reason the labor hours of lower income people are not accessed. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/303 "2010-04-22T04:14:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, what’s the cost to society if all of these are withdrawn? More crime, drug addiction, panhandling? I understand how tempting it is to make some kind of morality argument about bootstraps and junk, but the minuscule tax revenue you’d end up getting from these people is probably not nearly enough to cover the costs of driving them to desperation. I must say, I really resent the constant threat of more crime. Look how this plays out: We’ve established that without an education the likelihood that a kid becomes a criminal is near 100%. Which to me suggests that before having a child, a person/couple should check to make sure they can or even want to provide for education. Otherwise their kid will become a degenerate low life. But instead of being responsible, people just keep squirting out babies. So as a society, our only recourse is to _ask_ all the people without kids if they want to voluntarily chip in for other people’s kids. And then hope this keep these kids from breaking into their houses. But society is unable and unwilling to go back to the top and say, “why the fuck do you keep having kids that you are unwilling to provide for?” Isn’t that what this is all about? We are we so tolerant of these degenerate baby makers dumping their baskets of shit on our doorsteps? So fine, I’d rather pay for their education (thus hoping to avoid violent crime) than have to euthanize them. But what about the parents? Why is their no repercussions for them? In fact, instead of repercussions, we provide tax breaks so they can pay less tax, even though they are actually adding to the tax burden. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/304 "2010-04-22T04:17:07Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If you’re going to willfully misunderstand and mischaracterize my arguments, at least put on some smileys. > > Better yet, don’t willfully misunderstand and mischaracterize my arguments. Wasn’t your “analogy” intended to mischaracterize my position? Wait a second, who are you quoting? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/305 "2010-04-22T04:19:50Z")
Deleted. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/306 "2010-04-22T04:25:59Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If you’re going to willfully misunderstand and mischaracterize my arguments, at least put on some smileys. > Better yet, don’t willfully misunderstand and mischaracterize my arguments. Oh, now I get it, you’re made because I made reference to your constant threat of violence. As it stands, your argument in favour of tax payer funded social programs is that it will reduce the likelihood of someone breaking into my house. Most recently: > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Well, what’s the cost to society if all of these are withdrawn? More crime, drug addiction, panhandling? If I am mischaracterizing you, please elaborate. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/307 "2010-04-22T04:27:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It has nothing to do with morality and nothing about my post suggested it. My point is that we should tax labor hours across the economic spectrum. For some reason the labor hours of lower income people are not accessed. Well, the reason might very be that trying to tax their meager incomes in the name of “fair share-ism” won’t generate all that much additional revenue and in fact just make their lives harder, putting further strain on social services. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/308 "2010-04-22T04:39:03Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, the reason might very be that trying to tax their meager incomes in the name of “fair share-ism” won’t generate all that much additional revenue and in fact just make their lives harder, putting further strain on social services. Not their incomes, their labor. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/309 "2010-04-22T04:41:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Not their incomes, their labor. What if the reason they don’t have income is because they are disabled (in the larger context, not the casual use of the term)? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/310 "2010-04-22T05:02:06Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > What if the reason they don’t have income is because they are disabled (in the larger context, not the casual use of the term)? If you’re going to go down the road of what-if’s make sure to send a post card. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/311 "2010-04-22T05:10:43Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > I must say, I really resent the constant threat of more crime. Well, there’s probably a corner somewhere you can go cry in on the island of no taxes. > [@](#): > > Look how this plays out: We’ve established that without an education the likelihood that a kid becomes a criminal is near 100%. We have? When? > [@](#): > > Which to me suggests that before having a child, a person/couple should check to make sure they can or even want to provide for education. Otherwise their kid will become a degenerate low life. > > But instead of being responsible, people just keep squirting out babies. > > So as a society, our only recourse is to _ask_ all the people without kids if they want to voluntarily chip in for other people’s kids. And then hope this keep these kids from breaking into their houses. > > But society is unable and unwilling to go back to the top and say, “why the fuck do you keep having kids that you are unwilling to provide for?” Isn’t that what this is all about? Well, if you want to discuss the feasibility of parenting licenses, I’m sure that can be done, but in the meantime there isn’t any consensus on how to mandate pre-emptive parenting standards. At best, there’s a ramshackle social services net that tries to separate children from really bad parents. In any case, there’s always going to be some criminal underclass made up of people with poor impulse control and whatnot. There are ways we can minimize the harm they do, though I wouldn’t consider this “extortion” as such, just pest control. > [@](#): > > We are we so tolerant of these degenerate baby makers dumping their baskets of shit on our doorsteps? Something to do with freedom and a dislike for the oppressive arm of the state? > [@](#): > > So fine, I’d rather pay for their education (thus hoping to avoid violent crime) than have to euthanize them. But what about the parents? Why is their no repercussions for them? I dunno, call your congressman, demand a bad parenting law. > [@](#): > > In fact, instead of repercussions, we provide tax breaks so they can pay less tax, even though they are actually adding to the tax burden. What repercussions did you have in mind? And what if they have no effect? More repercussions? Sterner measures? Let’s hammer out some specifics, here. > [@emacknight](#): > > Oh, now I get it, you’re made because I made reference to your constant threat of violence. Yes, that must be it.. I’m “made”. Perhaps that’s what happens when I’m pointing out reality and I’m accused of fear-mongering. Regarding Magiver’s labour-credits: Well, that sounds like what was described in _Walden Two_, and I can imagine someone being required to perform low-level community service (like cleaning up vacant lots and such) in exchange for social benefits. Trouble is, in practice this sometimes leads to useless make-work projects that aren’t even worth the money spent on the government bureaucrat that must organize and supervise them, but I’m sure there are some success stories. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/312 "2010-04-22T05:11:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If you’re going to go down the road of what-if’s make sure to send a post card. Wow, was it that much of a stretch? I’m sorry to trouble you. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/313 "2010-04-22T05:16:12Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If you’re going to go down the road of what-if’s make sure to send a post card. Well, actually, aren’t there numerous people in the U.S. who receive social benefits for disability, including children and such? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/314 "2010-04-22T05:16:53Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > We have? When? I quoted you several times making reference to the fact that without public education, more kids become criminals. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yes, that must be it.. I’m “made”. Perhaps that’s what happens when I’m pointing out reality and I’m accused of fear-mongering. That first “made” was supposed to be “mad” but I missed the edit window. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/315 "2010-04-22T05:32:43Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > I quoted you several times making reference to the fact that without public education, more kids become criminals. Well, I trust the difference between “more” and “likelihood near 100%” isn’t all that obscure. In any case, paying taxes to (in part) support social services to reduce crime and misery isn’t some extortion scheme, or if it is, it’s extortion in the same sense that paying to support a fire department is paying off the oxidation mob. Damn you, self-sustaining plasma reaction! Similarly, paying to support a military is a nuisance, but the alternative is potentially a great deal worse. We have historical records of (and indeed some old people who still remember) times before social safety nets. Personal responsibility wasn’t magically created then, why believe it would be now? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/316 "2010-04-22T05:51:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, actually, aren’t there numerous people in the U.S. who receive social benefits for disability, including children and such? Yes. Is it really necessary to point out the obvious or discuss an infinite number of what if’s? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/317 "2010-04-22T06:08:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes. Is it really necessary to point out the obvious or discuss an infinite number of what if’s? Well, it was actually a pretty good question and worth asking - what do you do with people who simply _can’t_ work to contribute either labour or tax revenue to the nation? It also seems to me that you should get at least _two_ cases before you can drop the “infinite” bomb. Maybe something like: A: [statement] B: What about Case X? A: [explanation] B: [gives no indication that the explanation for X matters to him] What about Case Y? At this point, I daresay it’s fair for A to suspect that B intends to keep asking about specific cases of increasing unlikelihood (unto infinity, as it were) until he finds one that he can claim discredits the original statement and until this point, the case-by-case explanations aren’t really that important. Anyway, I’m going to assume that you’d allow some provision for the profoundly disabled to get social benefits, and that includes the elderly and people suffering from acute injuries or illnesses presenting a significant short-term disability, i.e. emergency rooms treating gunshot victims and whatnot regardless of ability to pay. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/318 "2010-04-22T06:18:27Z")
My one and only point was that we don’t access the labor of low income people. Just because someone doesn’t generate money doesn’t mean they can’t contribute their labor directly. As I said before, we’ve had programs in my city where benefits were tied to labor. I see no reason why this concept can’t be used in some form on a national level. I shouldn’t have to specify that an incapacitated person can’t donate labor. It’s a given. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/319 "2010-04-22T06:26:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > As I said before, we’ve had programs in my city where benefits were tied to labor. And were they successful? That, I hope, is a relevant question. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/320 "2010-04-22T06:32:15Z")
I suppose it was. The city received valuable labor and people in need received benefits. Everybody receives benefits from the taxes they pay. It just makes sense that we fully utilize the labor hours involved in the process. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749.md?page=17)