# Taxes are Theft **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 20, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749 "2010-04-20T15:12:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/381 "2010-04-22T23:40:17Z")
This is a pet peeve of mine. **Theft** is when I take something from you by burglary or comparable sneakiness. Except **embezzlement** , which is when I pilfer something fungible left in my care. Oh, & **pilfering** , which is taking a fraction of something non-fungible. But that’s still theft. **Robbery** is when I take something from your person by force. **Larceny** is when I profit from the sale of something I had no right to sell. **Extortion** is when I coerce you into giving me something under threat. Tax is not theft, robbery, nor larceny. It is extortion. Get it right. And you can (in most modern cases) leave the taxed region, or decide not to do the taxed thing (such as make money), & not owe tax. So it’s not like the ancient Roman publicans, who “taxed” arbitrarily & unevenly through what amounted to kidnap for ransom. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/382 "2010-04-23T00:16:03Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Then I honestly don’t know what you mean by an equal share tax. Eight pages in, I’d’a thought your basic premise, at least, would be clearly defined. I don’t know why but I am drawn to your strawman, there is something about it’s fluffy hay arms and funny hat. Right now, the system of taxation through income bares no connection to the benefits derived. (And most importantly, if there are benefits, people should want to pay for them, keep this part in mind.) I admit that income is an easy target, it to some degree reflects means. And why not take more from those with means. Property value also reflects means, as does consumer purchases. The problem is that income and property value have nothing to do with highways, recycling, FDA, or the EPA. Essentially, a long time ago taxes were levied on things people desired. Everyone likes tea, so we’ll tax tea. When that backfired, someone figure out we could tax income and people aren’t likely to give it up in rebellion. And then lazy thinking continued it. Need something, add it to income tax. So in the multitude of disregarded examples, the “solutions” we needed taxes for could be better addressed by actually applying them to their target. Problem: Batteries contain lead, lead is bad, batteries need to be recycled, recycling costs money. The lazy solution is to say, “recycling benefits everyone, add it to income tax.” This encourages battery use since the cost of recycling is hidden. More batteries means more recycling, meaning we need more money, back to step one, raise income taxes. (there is more at the bottom if you feel like reading it) My solution is to take the cost of recycling and apply it as a “tax” to the battery. Now we might actually reduce battery use as people are forced to take responsibility more directly for their actions. Fewer batteries means we need less recycling. But even if consumption goes up, the recycling program will always be properly funded. I’m sorry that this system hurts the poor, but at the very base we at least allow the poor to decide if owning a battery is important to them. Like cigarette and alcohol taxes. And if we find out that people _need_ that battery to survive, then address the issue of low income individuals as a whole, not in pieces. The point, is that it directly speaks to personal responsibility, if you feel you _need_ a battery, and that you _benefit_ from it, you should be more than happy to pay for it, and the recycling that goes with it. I concede that it can’t work for everything. And that in the short term there will be some extreme price changes. My hope is that the price of an item more accurately reflects the _harm_ it does to society thus both discouraging it’s use, and paying for the repercussions. I’ll also concede that there isn’t a snow balls chance in hell this could ever even remotely be considered in real world applications. more unecessary ramblings: The problem never gets solved. If you can’t raise taxes any more, a stop gap is used in the form of “paying to recycle.” Now we are taxing for recycling, but we have discouraged it. A year later the books look balanced, and hey, the recycling program is making money! Then we find all the illegally dumped batteries. We’ll need more agents to deal with enforcement (more taxes), we’ll need to pay for the clean up (more taxes) and we’ll need to pay to recycling the batteries (more taxes), oh, and we’ve got lead in the water we need to treat, and kids with developmental problems we’ll have to care for. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/383 "2010-04-23T00:29:42Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > This is a pet peeve of mine. > > **Theft** is when I take something from you by burglary or comparable sneakiness. > > Except **embezzlement** , which is when I pilfer something fungible left in my care. > > Oh, & **pilfering** , which is taking a fraction of something non-fungible. But that’s still theft. > > **Robbery** is when I take something from your person by force. > > **Larceny** is when I profit from the sale of something I had no right to sell. > > **Extortion** is when I coerce you into giving me something under threat. > > Tax is not theft, robbery, nor larceny. It is extortion. Get it right. > > And you can (in most modern cases) leave the taxed region, or decide not to do the taxed thing (such as make money), & not owe tax. So it’s not like the ancient Roman publicans, who “taxed” arbitrarily & unevenly through what amounted to kidnap for ransom. Not extortion at all. The government is providing a lot of services. For some reason they think you should help pay for them. Unless the anti taxers are able to build airplanes , draft and train armies, build ships and rockets . If they are willing to take care of roads and traffic lights and so many other things, then we all can skip paying taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/384 "2010-04-23T00:34:18Z")
Okay, I get that it’s a plan about recycling (and something like it has indeed been implemented, so skip the “snowball in hell” guff), but does it relate at all to income or property taxes, or is it just proposing a new form of sales tax / user fee? ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/385 "2010-04-23T00:43:23Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > I looked through my thread, and haven’t found where I mentioned “equal share tax.” > > So for now, I’m going to decline your invitation to dance with a strawman. > > And in the future when someone says, “Kinda wondering where the notion of all the poor people sponging off those who work comes from.” I will respectfully ignore them and not even bother mentioning the strawman. Okay, let’s talk about the things you **have** said. Like this, for example: > [@emacknight](#): > > I wasn’t aware that was a condition for posting on this board. Now that I know, I will gladly remind future posts. This probably sarcasm but I will respond anyway. Nobody has created any new rules for the board, the question was asked and repeated because you have this big complaint and I was curious what your solution was which, until now, you failed to make any mention of. > [@emacknight](#): > > My solution: > 1.) Establish the rule that adding to federal income tax is a matter of absolute last resort. Save it for the things that actually impact everyone equally. Note that I’m not saying never add, just leave it as the last option once all others have at least been considered. (technically I’d like deficit spending to be the last resort but let’s be realistic here) Fine. Sounds great. I’m all for it. > [@emacknight](#): > > 2.) Before the addition of _any_ new tax, establish those that “directly” benefit, then establish those that indirectly benefit. Then ask if there is a more direct way to tax those that benefit directly. If you want to improve libraries, start by asking if there is a way to get more revenue from the people that actually use the library. You don’t have to steal from them, that would be theft. I’d like us to start by asking if there is a direct way. Failing that, circle outwards, moving through the list of people that benefit. Okay. Wheels are starting to wobble. But okay. There’s a vague air of reasonability in there. > [@emacknight](#): > > Example: It makes little sense to have a federal tax to fund one local library in the middle of no where. True. > [@emacknight](#): > > Sure everyone benefits a little, and the cost would be like $0.00437 a year. To who? > [@emacknight](#): > > But the users of the library are the direct beneficiaries, with the town being second, county third, state fourth… Yes… > [@emacknight](#): > > If it’s unreasonable to ask the users of the library to pay $500 a year (assuming 10 users and a $5000 expansion), is it reasonable for the town of 100 to pay $50? Or each person in the county to pay $5. Okay, the wheels have completely flown off the bus, the road has abruptly ended at the edge of a cliff, and the bus and everyone on it have perished in a humongous fireball. You really think that even a small public library can be run for $5000 a year?! [Here’s a shocking dose of unfortunately inconvenient reality](http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1387/is_n3_v42/ai_15161653/). Not a PDF. There are no actual numbers in that report, but it is quite apparent within the first 2 pages that the real cost of running a library is quite a bit more than $5000 a year, no matter how many or how few patrons they actually have. > [@emacknight](#): > > 3.) Establish who this will harm, and what negative consequences are likely to result. Consider this the law of unintended consequences. Will funding the library first take spending money from residents, and secondly impede operations of the local book stores? (Is the library predominantly books about creationism, kidding) This can also ask if it unfairly targets the poor. A $5 user fee may seem like peanuts to the rest of us, but if the people using the library lack $5 we’ve lost the benefits listed in (2). > > 4.) Is the government spending being used to buy votes directly or indirectly? Who has the no-bid contract? stuff like that. > > 5.) Is there something in the budget that could be cut, so that we remain revenue neutral? > > Then go through the rest of the budget and ask these questions. > > Summary: First ask if there is a more direct way to tax those that benefit directly. Real world numbers aside, here’s the main problem with your plan: it’s a plan for an idealized world where we get to start everything over from scratch, completely ignoring the past and everything that comes with it, and assumes that 1) everyone agrees to this plan and 2) everyone gets to start over from nothing. How exactly are we going to implement this plan, in **reality**? You can’t just end welfare, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, unemployment benefits, and put those 85 million “freeloaders” [[Cite](http://usa.usembassy.de/society-socialsecurity.htm)] [[Cite](http://www.compuquotes.com/medicare-and-medicaid.html)] out on their asses. Do you have any idea what the effects of that would be? For just one example, end Medicaid and [over 4000 hospitals would close](http://www.healthbusinessandpolicy.com/Documents/unland.pdf). What happens to all of those people? Not just patients but the employees of those hospitals? Doctors, nurses, orderlies, EMTs, facilities and maintenance workers, we’re talking about hundreds of thousands of people suddenly out of work with nowhere to turn. Think the economy and unemployment numbers are bad now? I honestly appreciate your rudimentary attempt at an idealized tax system, but unfortunately we all exist in the real world and it’s just not going to work(not that I believe you really think it could be possible either). ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/386 "2010-04-23T00:47:34Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Okay, the wheels have completely flown off the bus, the road has abruptly ended at the edge of a cliff, and the bus and everyone on it have perished in a humongous fireball. > > You really think that even a small public library can be run for $5000 a year?! I believe I said $5000 expansion, I’m going to check. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/387 "2010-04-23T01:01:45Z")
So we’re going to operate on a 100% precision standard, now? Since “equal share tax” is not identical to “fair share” (a term you used quite a bit), the rest of my earlier post and follow-up question gets written off, and since DCnDC missed the “expansion” qualifier, everything else he said is moot? ETA: Wait a sec, I didn’t count the actual number of times you said “fair share”. It might not actually be “quite a bit”! Oh, no! I may have just invalidated myself! ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/388 "2010-04-23T01:02:48Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > How exactly are we going to implement this plan, in **reality**? You can’t just end welfare, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, unemployment benefits, and put those 85 million “freeloaders” [[Cite](http://usa.usembassy.de/society-socialsecurity.htm)] [[Cite](http://www.compuquotes.com/medicare-and-medicaid.html)] out on their asses. Do you have any idea what the effects of that would be? For just one example, end Medicaid and [over 4000 hospitals would close](http://www.healthbusinessandpolicy.com/Documents/unland.pdf). What happens to all of those people? Not just patients but the employees of those hospitals? Doctors, nurses, orderlies, EMTs, facilities and maintenance workers, we’re talking about hundreds of thousands of people suddenly out of work with nowhere to turn. Think the economy and unemployment numbers are bad now? Wow, that really sucks, what’s the federal deficit at these days, good luck with all that. {backs away slowly} (Also note that we’ve already established single-payer health care is the way to go, so that would clear up your Medicaid/Medicare issues) ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/389 "2010-04-23T01:15:01Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So we’re going to operate on a 100% precision standard, now? Since “equal share tax” is not identical to “fair share” (a term you used quite a bit), the rest of my earlier post and follow-up question gets written off, and since DCnDC missed the “expansion” qualifier, everything else he said is moot? > > ETA: Wait a sec, I didn’t count the actual number of times you said “fair share”. It might not actually be “quite a bit”! Oh, no! I may have just invalidated myself! Interesting standard, care to hold anyone else to it? The bulk of his post was directed at my implied lack of knowledge concerning library funding. He choose to misinterpret what I wrote, then disregarded everything else I said. That entire section was based on what he thought should have been 100% precision regarding the cost to run a library. > [@DCnDC](#): > > Okay, the wheels have completely flown off the bus, the road has abruptly ended at the edge of a cliff, and the bus and everyone on it have perished in a humongous fireball. > > You really think that even a small public library can be run for $5000 a year?! Here’s a shocking dose of unfortunately inconvenient reality. All that because he thought I said the library _ran_ on $5000 a year. Take a scan through the responses in page 1 and look at the comments directed towards me. You are welcome to shit on other people as well, even the ones on your side. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/390 "2010-04-23T01:16:27Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Wow, that really sucks, what’s the federal deficit at these days, good luck with all that. > > {backs away slowly} > > (Also note that we’ve already established single-payer health care is the way to go, so that would clear up your Medicaid/Medicare issues) Where did this happen, exactly? Are you referring to the instance where you asserted that > [@emarknight](#): > > Health care in the US is there for those that choose to have it. It might mean a smaller tv, fewer cable channels, or a house a bit further from the city. But it is there for those willing to choose responsibility over government handouts. ? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/391 "2010-04-23T01:20:49Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > The bulk of his post was directed at my implied lack of knowledge concerning library funding. He choose to misinterpret what I wrote, then disregarded everything else I said. That entire section was based on what he thought should have been 100% precision regarding the cost to run a library. I don’t think he chose, I think he just made a mistake and overlooked one word. > [@](#): > > All that because he thought I said the library _ran_ on $5000 a year. Yeah, that’s probably what he thought you said. > [@](#): > > Take a scan through the responses in page 1 and look at the comments directed towards me. You are welcome to shit on other people as well, even the ones on your side. Nah, I don’t want to go back to page 1 and analyze what other people said to you. I know _I_ debated in good faith for much longer than the topic deserved. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/392 "2010-04-23T01:27:47Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Nah, I don’t want to go back to page 1 and analyze what other people said to you. I know _I_ debated in good faith for much longer than the topic deserved. Let’s see, 1,2,3,4,5 > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So move to an island somewhere. Post #6. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/393 "2010-04-23T01:29:46Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Interesting standard, care to hold anyone else to it? > > The bulk of his post was directed at my implied lack of knowledge concerning library funding. He choose to misinterpret what I wrote, then disregarded everything else I said. That entire section was based on what he thought should have been 100% precision regarding the cost to run a library. Um… no. If you had bothered to read and comprehend the whole thing, you’d know the bulk of my post was directed at your completely and totally unfeasible plan to demolish the current tax system and implement a brand new, completely untested anywhere in the history of the world, idealized(for you) tax system which benefits only the richest highest-income taxpayers and tells everyone else to go fuck themselves. Regarding your library example, this is what you said: > [@emarknight](#): > > Example: It makes little sense to have a federal tax to fund one local library in the middle of no where. Sure everyone benefits a little, and the cost would be like $0.00437 a year. But the users of the library are the direct beneficiaries, with the town being second, county third, state fourth… If it’s unreasonable to ask the users of the library to pay $500 a year (assuming 10 users and a $5000 expansion), is it reasonable for the town of 100 to pay $50? Or each person in the county to pay $5. What is this expansion shit? Who’s expanding the library? Forget expanding the library, **who is paying to keep that library open that only 10 people use**? Do you actually have _any idea_ whatsoever what _ **anything** _ costs?! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/394 "2010-04-23T01:31:26Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Post #6. Well, that was a bit flippant but it does represent a possible (albeit completely impractical) solution for someone who feels taxation is theft and is looking for ways to abandon it entirely. Trouble is, that person would also have to give up on any kind of infrastructure or services, except what he could provide himself. On… y’know.. an island. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/395 "2010-04-23T01:33:35Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Where did this happen, exactly? Are you referring to the instance where you asserted that No, a couple pages later, someone made a really compelling argument so I changed my opinion. Should I have held on in the face of insurmountable evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/396 "2010-04-23T01:37:54Z")
I was kinda curious when single-payer got chosen, too, but I was too shy to ask. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/397 "2010-04-23T01:39:14Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > No, a couple pages later, someone made a really compelling argument so I changed my opinion. Should I have held on in the face of insurmountable evidence? Guess I missed that. Fair enough. What about the 50 million currently drawing welfare benefits? Out on their ass? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/398 "2010-04-23T01:47:02Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > … **who is paying to keep that library open that only 10 people use**? Do you actually have _any idea_ whatsoever what _ **anything** _ costs?! So we’re going to operate on a 100% precision standard, now? I did say it was a library in the middle of no where. Did I really need to figure out the exact usage, did you want to know what was in the planned $5000 expansion? I picked 10 because it’s an easy number to divide. Notice the town had 100, how many did you expect to go to the library? You jumped right over the point I was making: "It makes little sense to have a federal tax to fund one local library in the middle of no where. " The main point is about appropriate taxation. Don’t tax federally what is actually a local issue. The secondary point is that instead of starting off by saying “let’s use taxation” I suggested that we **start** by examining user fees, which to me represent the most direct form of taxation. I tried to use an example to show the various levels at which a tax could be applied, with made up numbers to give a sense of perspective; large user fee vs small regional tax. But I failed to provide 100% precision so the rest of my point was moot. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/399 "2010-04-23T01:58:17Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > So we’re going to operate on a 100% precision standard, now? I’ve gone to the trouble to find and cite numbers and figures from reality to make my case, but you think it’s perfectly reasonable to refute my arguments with numbers you’ve pulled completely out of your ass? > [@](#): > > "It makes little sense to have a federal tax to fund one local library in the middle of no where. " > > The main point is about appropriate taxation. Don’t tax federally what is actually a local issue. I’m aware. I agreed. > [@](#): > > The secondary point is that instead of starting off by saying “let’s use taxation” I suggested that we **start** by examining user fees, which to me represent the most direct form of taxation. > > I tried to use an example to show the various levels at which a tax could be applied, with made up numbers to give a sense of perspective; large user fee vs small regional tax. > > But I failed to provide 100% precision so the rest of my point was moot. Your point is not moot because you failed to provide 100% precision, your point is moot because your plan is completely unreasonable and unworkable in the real world in which we all must live together. It’s easy to come up with solutions on a small scale regarding a single service or entity, but scaling that up country-wide and applying it to everything just doesn’t work. Sorry, but it just doesn’t. There are just too many variables to make it equal and fair to everybody. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/400 "2010-04-23T01:59:47Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Guess I missed that. Fair enough. > > What about the 50 million currently drawing welfare benefits? Out on their ass? Well, if they don’t pay taxes, or if they complain, they can leave. You know, move to a country (or island) with welfare benefits. Lots of socialist countries out there, I’m surprised their residents don’t view it as their moral imperative. No seriously, what is the current solution? As a funny aside, countries within the European Union (and economic zone) allow citizens of one country to live and work in another member country (almost analogous to moving from state to state). While researching the rules to go live in Spain, I noticed that they have a cap on how long you can “freeload” I won’t say the actual number for fear I’m not 100% correct, I think it’s in the 6 month range. Basically, if you can’t find a job within that time frame, they’ll ask you to go back to your original country. So their solution is to literally tell the unemployed to go back to their island (assuming they were from an island). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749.md?page=21)