# Taxes are Theft **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 20, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749 "2010-04-20T15:12:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/41 "2010-04-20T16:24:05Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > Listen, I’m busting chops here, but when I see a post like your response, I envision Ebenezer: “Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?” > It’s a RARE thing to see someone truly give their literal shirt off their back to someone in desperate need, at least in the area I live in. And you know, if you were someone I knew in real life, I’d likely offer you that couch for a while. But I certainly wouldn’t invite someone off the internet to live in my house (including while I’m sleeping). That’s one reason I do support shelters and food stamps and universal healthcare, so that I don’t have to face the dilemma of deciding whether or not to trust someone I don’t know not to steal my stuff (or worse) while I’m unconscious. And that’s not a slam on the poor…I’d treat a middle-class stranger the same if he asked to crash at my place. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/42 "2010-04-20T16:24:21Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > Listen, I’m busting chops here, but when I see a post like your response, I envision Ebenezer: “Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?” > It’s a RARE thing to see someone truly give their literal shirt off their back to someone in desperate need, at least in the area I live in. Sorry man, grilling here breaks the fire code. How bout some leftover lasagna? It really is more of a practical matter. I’m not really equipped to help someone in the situation you described. I could give you my shirt, but then all you would have is a shirt, and I would be in need of one. Better to let the people with the necessary resources to help you out. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/43 "2010-04-20T16:25:29Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Libertarianism is not a serious philosophy and does not need to be ‘debated’. It’s just a fig leaf for juvenile sociopaths to hide behind. Enough! If you want to participate in a serious discussion, here, do so. If you simply wish to make insulting comments about other posters, (however thinly disguised as political opinions), take it to The BBQ Pit. That goes for everyone else, (and includes the mouth foaming in the OP), as well. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/44 "2010-04-20T16:25:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s _ad hominem_, kids. Look it up. It will be on the test. It’s also true. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/45 "2010-04-20T16:25:47Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Libertarianism is not a serious philosophy and does not need to be ‘debated’. It’s just a fig leaf for juvenile sociopaths to hide behind. > [@tagos](#): > > We have plenty of resident nut-jobs who posit this sort of nonsense incessantly and get their asses handed to them on practically a daily basis. This is not helpful. Rather than making blithe characterizations about libertarians (or liberals or conversatives for that matter), let’s stick to the OP’s comments on taxes. That goes for everybody, not just **tagos**. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/46 "2010-04-20T16:27:05Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > And you know, if you were someone I knew in real life, I’d likely offer you that couch for a while. But I certainly wouldn’t invite someone off the internet to live in my house (including while I’m sleeping). That’s one reason I do support shelters and food stamps and universal healthcare, so that I don’t have to face the dilemma of deciding whether or not to trust someone I don’t know not to steal my stuff (or worse) while I’m unconscious. And that’s not a slam on the poor…I’d treat a middle-class stranger the same if he asked to crash at my place. But you pay taxes for police protection! So why worry? (I’m just messin’ with you man, I agree with you about the crashing with strangers thing.) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/47 "2010-04-20T16:27:42Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Anyone with these beliefs who uses any public services at all, or supports any state provision of any service from the military to road networks is a hypocrite. And anyone who is caught deficient on their taxes should have to pay ALL their back taxes. You’d expect that at the very least right? No, the person who is in charge of collecting taxes did not pay his back taxes beyond what was audited. That would be Secretary of the Treasury Timothy Geithner. The reason taxes are theft is really more simple than what the ops posted. It is a redistribution of labor hours and it discriminates against the tax payer. There is no reason why we can’t collect taxes from the poor in the form of the labor itself. But instead of doing that, we reward the poor for leveraging the tax disparity by producing more children who then require additional labor redistribution. If we are going to increase the redistribution of labor hours with each new child then not only should their labor be taxed, there should be a penalty for the financial harm it creates just as we penalize thieves who steal. If the current news reports are true and only half the people are actually paying taxes then that means we are going to have to support those people as well as pay off a 12 trillion dollar debt. Who is going to pay for this? What is stopping this labor disparity from continuing? As it stands now the United States AAA bond rating is in question. It could slide down in the future which would increase the cost of our debt even further. Who is going to pay for that? If we don’t start taking responsibility for our own existence then at some point there won’t be enough people to cover the cost. You can call taxes whatever you want but it’s somebody’s labor and there are no laws requiring the wealthy to live or work in the United States. They are the one demographic group capable of picking up stakes and taking their taxable income somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/48 "2010-04-20T16:29:32Z")
> [@Xan](#): > > My part of my philosophy is that taxes are theft. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be any taxes. I’m saying that the government should not spend tax dollars wastefully. If people had a choice they would not pay. Most people work for this money and as little of it should be taken as absolutely necessary. Depends on how you phrase the question really. If you ask do you want to pay less taxes, of course they say yes . If you ask them what services should be cut, well that is fair bit more difficult. [http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2010/04/economistyougov\_polling](http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2010/04/economistyougov_polling) Americans aren’t anti-government, they are pro free stuff. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/49 "2010-04-20T17:25:51Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Exactly, if you keep advocating theft, eventually you’ll get robbed. Based purely on government statistics, I’m in the top 5% of income earners in the U.S. So I pay plenty of tax. I still say I’m glad that government services are there for me if I ever need them. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/50 "2010-04-20T17:29:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If the current news reports are true and only half the people are actually paying taxes then that means we are going to have to support those people as well as pay off a 12 trillion dollar debt. Who is going to pay for this? What is stopping this labor disparity from continuing? INCOME TAXES, not taxes. When you see on the news that X% of people pay Y% of income taxes, while Z% pay W%, remember they’re talking about income taxes. Not property taxes, not sales tax, not social security tax, not medicare. Everybody with a job pays 7% of their income straight into social security, with no deductions allowed. And employers add another 7%, so that’s 14%. It chaps my ass when people get confused like this. Now, about taxes being theft. What defines theft? You have property that belongs to you, yes? And if someone takes that property without your permission, that’s stealing, yes? But how did that inanimate object get labeled as your property in the first place? You bought it? You made it? You earned it? How does that make something your property? God didn’t create property rights, mother nature didn’t create property rights. Human beings invented property rights, as a way to keep from having constant arguments (and/or fights to the death) over who gets what stuff. That’s right. Property rights are social constructed. They are artificial. They depend upon the agreement of your neighbors. And if your neighbors don’t agree that you own X, and they assert that Bob really owns X, then you’re going to have to either hand over X, or fight them. And if there are a lot more of them, they’re gonna kick your ass if you fight them. Property rights are one of those concepts that turn out to work better than the alternatives. We could decide tomorrow that there’s no such thing as property rights, only what you can defend with a fist or a gun. Except then we’d all be so busy fighting each other to keep what’s ours that we wouldn’t have much time for productive things. So you agree to keep your goddam paws off the objects labeled “mine”, and I agree to keep my paws off the stuff labeled “yours”. And if we don’t agree, rather than knife each other, we go to a third party to resolve our dispute. Of course, the concept of taxation as described in middle school civics classes is all sorts of wrong. Taxes really were a system of theft–if you didn’t pay tribute, guys with swords would come along and cut you up. And all you got in return for paying your tribute was to not get cut up. Except the swordsmen who threatened you found that other swordsmen wanted to rob you, instead of them. So they had to be ready to fight the other swordsmen over the right to rob you. But that doesn’t change the fact that nowadays we choose the people who collect the tribute, and if we don’t like it, we can argue for changes in policy. Fact is, humans are social animals. We are obliged to live in groups. And therefore we have to have some method of resolving disputes between us. And that means some people won’t like the resolution of the dispute. Which means the rest of us have to be ready to kick the asses of the people who don’t like the resolutions, otherwise, they’ll kick our asses. And this is why armies and police and courts are essential to the functioning of society. Even countries in anarchy have traditional methods of resolving disputes. In Somolia there are clan leaders and warlords and religious people who perform these roles. And random guys with AK-47s. So there’s no escaping from other people, except by literally living in the wilderness by yourself. And if you find it intolerable to live by the rules the rest of us made up, then that’s the only option for you. I believe there’s an aphorism about doors and asses that might apply. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/51 "2010-04-20T17:39:59Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Taxes are the membership fee for living in a civilized society rather than a Hobbesian state of nature. Yes. Or to put it another way, life does not have to be nasty, brutish, and short just because you happen to be. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/52 "2010-04-20T17:47:14Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Fact is, humans are social animals. We are obliged to live in groups. And not only that, but the hard-earned money that the libertarians consider to be all their own is actually _created_ by society. And society makes it possible for the libertarian to earn that money, but creating an economic society, by consenting to the activities that earn money. You can’t earn money in the absence of society as a whole and other people as individuals both consenting to it, cooperating with you, and sacrificing some of their own assets to you. The individual doesn’t create his or her own property out of thin air. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/53 "2010-04-20T17:50:00Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Yes. Or to put it another way, life does not have to be nasty, brutish, and short just because you happen to be. This is not keeping this thread in the realm of civil discourse, either. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/54 "2010-04-20T18:26:10Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Which is what it all boils down to. If you don’t pay, you go to jail. > > The government is taking your hard earned property, by force, and giving it to people who didn’t work for it. > > Spreading it around so that those who choose to be irresponsible get to benefit from those that aren’t. > > Health care in the US is there for those that choose to have it. It might mean a smaller tv, fewer cable channels, or a house a bit further from the city. But it is there for those willing to choose responsibility over government handouts. > > There will always be another “problem to solve.” Allowing taxation simply leads to more taxation. Once a program is in place, it will never be repealed. And it can’t be left to fail on it’s on merits, so funding (and taxes) must be increased. Then another problem arises that only taxes can solve, so throw another log onto the pile. > > When raising taxes stops being politically profitable, the solution is to run deficits, which is just another way of saying we’re going to tax you plus interest in the future. > > At some point, we need to realize the government can’t fix our problems. Then realize the government shouldn’t be fixing other people’s problems using my money. If you’ve got problems, deal with it. Using your own money and your own resources. > > Let people have the money they earn, to succeed or fail on their own. If you want health insurance and medical care, work to earn income, and use that income to pay for it. If you have money left over get as big as tv as you can. It’s time to do away with this concept that you can be part of a society without working. And it’s unfortunate to say, but people need to be able to die because of their own bad choices. > > Stop living in flood zones or below sea level, then expect the government to help you out. Stop surrounding yourself with bone-dry timber and being shocked there is a forest fire threatening your house. Earthquakes shouldn’t be a surprise if you’re living on a fault line. Tornadoes and lightening WILL strike the same place twice. > > The world isn’t meant to be kind and gentle. If you take out a loan you will pay it back. If you enter a contract, you will honor it. If you lose your job you won’t have money unless you saved. If your house burns down or your car is totaled, no one else is going to pay to have it replaced. > > No one is going to provide you insurance against the harshness of reality, it’s entirely up to you. Since Obama cut taxes for 95 percent of Americans, you must be a real big fan of his. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/55 "2010-04-20T18:33:27Z")
OK, so let’s grant, for the sake of argument, that taxes are theft. What do you plan to do, call the police to arrest the thieves? Clearly not, because the police are paid for out of taxes. Obviously, when you get robbed, you expect to be able to deal with it yourself, and believe that you can, from your own resources, defend against any thieves. So do it. Since you claim to be able to deal with thieves using your own resources, fight off these thieves that are stealing your tax money from you. If you can’t, that’s clearly just a sign that you need to work harder so you can afford it. Oh, and don’t bother saying that you’ll join in with a bunch of other similarly-minded folks, pool your resources, and fight off the evil thieves together. Because, you see, when you do that, you need some structures in place to decide how to use those resources, and how much each member should contribute. And guess what? Once you do that, you’re right back to having a government and taxes, just a different government. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/56 "2010-04-20T18:33:50Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > And you know, if you were someone I knew in real life, I’d likely offer you that couch for a while. But I certainly wouldn’t invite someone off the internet to live in my house (including while I’m sleeping). That’s one reason I do support shelters and food stamps and universal healthcare, so that I don’t have to face the dilemma of deciding whether or not to trust someone I don’t know not to steal my stuff (or worse) while I’m unconscious. And that’s not a slam on the poor…I’d treat a middle-class stranger the same if he asked to crash at my place. I’ve often said I’m a liberal because I’m too selfish to be conservative. I don’t want my down on their luck relatives and friends crashing at my place for “just a few weeks.” I didn’t want to have to listen to my mother if she had been forced to live with my grandmother. And don’t want her living with me either. Yea for the social safety net! It allows me to tut tut and sympathize without actually having to go out of my way other than to write a big check to the IRS at tax time. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/57 "2010-04-20T18:47:14Z")
Having read some of the OP’s other threads, I’m guessing this is just an exercise for discussion’s sake. (No, I’m not saying he’s trolling – just using a different debating tactic.) ---
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/58 "2010-04-20T18:59:18Z")
Here’s one local example where taxes can be considered theft/extortion; I live in state “A”, which has sales tax I am a 10 minute drive from state “B” which has no sales tax… I make purchases in both states When I do my state taxes for state “A”, one of the “optional” taxes is a flat-rate tax based on a percentage of my yearly income to make up for “lost” sales tax for purchases made outside of state “A” …Or, I can keep _every_ reciept from _every_ out-of-state purchase and have my sales tax rate calculated from those purchases …Or, I can ignore both those options and run the risk of getting audited/penalized for out-of-state purchases To me, this “estimated sales tax” tax smacks of legalized extortion, “we know you made out of state purchases, pay us this amount and we won’t audit you”, how is this _not_ an extortion/protection racket with the blessing of the state government? Hey, state “A”, if you don’t want to lose sales to state “B”, then get rid of the smegging sales tax, problem solved! ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/59 "2010-04-20T19:05:56Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > So you don’t get anything of value back from the taxes you pay? That police and fire protection, those highways that you drive, the public libraries and schools…they’re not worth a bit of your income/property value? Actually, no, which is sort of the point. I’m able to buy my own books, I don’t have kids, and I don’t cause fires. And if I could have my tax dollars back for those things, I’d be able to enjoy more of the things I like without having to subsidize the things you like. I use a few highways, but why do I have to pay for millions of highways I don’t use. Those that use them can pay for them. If it’s of value to you, you can pay. I’ll gladly pay my share of the highways I use. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So move to an island somewhere. Why is it that I’m the one that has to move. If you want socialism so badly move to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, since socialism is so great I’m sure that country is doing fine right now. Also consider that if I move, and people like me move, where are you going to get your tax revenue from? > [@tagos](#): > > Anyone with these beliefs who uses any public services at all, or supports any state provision of any service from the military to road networks is a hypocrite. > > Why they all don’t just frack off to Somalia where they will find a country much more to their liking I don’t know. Well, no, if you’ve taken my money for something, I’m not a hypocrite for using it. What I’m trying to say is that I DON’T want you taking my money, and when you stop taking my money I’ll stop using those things. > [@tagos](#): > > No they are not, despite the writings and rantings of a handful of semi-literate sociopaths. So anyone with a differing view point than you is a sociopath? > [@acsenray](#): > > Either you pay taxes to a government in which you have a voice, or you pay tribute to a local strongman who has enough muscle to beat out the other wannabe strongmen. > > Which do you choose? Exactly, why don’t I get to choose? Competition will make better strongmen that operate more efficiently. There is so much straw in this debate I hope you have great medical coverage for when it falls on you. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/60 "2010-04-20T19:16:38Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > I don’t cause fires. The fire department is there in case you start a fire, not because you’re likely to start one. > [@](#): > > Why is it that I’m the one that has to move. Most of society does not agree with you. From a free market perspective, it seems like you would be the one who has to leave. > [@](#): > > Also consider that if I move, and people like me move, where are you going to get your tax revenue from? From the almost-everyone who stays. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749.md?page=4)