# Taxes are Theft **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 20, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749 "2010-04-20T15:12:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/121 "2010-04-21T00:56:17Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > The problem with the “let’s all pay only our own way” approach is that often my neighbors problems BECOME my problems if left unattended. Okay, let’s give this a try: > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > If my neighbor’s house is on fire, I want someone to come and put it out before it spreads to my house. I choose a house far enough from my neighbour as to be safe. Was that wrong of me? > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > If someone is selling crack three blocks away, I want someone to bust them before their clients show up to rob me. So what your saying is that we don’t have people selling crack at the moment? > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > I want trucks to be regularly inspected so they don’t smash into me on the road when their brakes fail. That sounds great, do we have that now? How’s it working? > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > I want poor kids to have decent educations so they will grow up to be productive and responsible adults instead of ignorant thugs. Oddly enough, we still have ignorant thugs. Right now we have million of unproductive and irresponsible adults, can we conclude that what ever we have now failed? > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > I like paying taxes, because when the government makes things better for my neighbors, the benefits they receive trickle down to me. As I said, I’m fine paying user fees. If something benefits me and my neighbours I’ll happily chip in my fair share. But if I’m the only one paying I don’t see why I should be doing things to benefit others. If they want to benefit, they’ll be happy to pay. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/122 "2010-04-21T00:58:31Z")
Islands ain’t got none of that neighbors, roads, thugs or crack stuff. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/123 "2010-04-21T00:59:07Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > emacknight > > How old are you? Why are you so obsessed with who I am personally? Your attempts at ad hominem and appeal to emotion really aren’t getting you any where. If your point has merit, state it and allow it to be judges on those merits. Who I am, how much I pay, where I live, how old I am, are all irrelevant to the debate at hand. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/124 "2010-04-21T01:06:50Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > I choose a house far enough from my neighbour as to be safe. Was that wrong of me? Any political system that is incapable of accommodating the existence of CITIES is seriously broken. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/125 "2010-04-21T01:10:43Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > I choose a house far enough from my neighbour as to be safe. Was that wrong of me? So everyone who can’t afford to buy a house like yours is welcome to fuck off and die in a fire that’s not their fault? You seem to think that everyone’s situation is 100 percent the result of their good or bad choices or whatever and so whatever happens to them is justified. The problem is that this isn’t realistic. Even if 100 percent of the people in the world made exactly the same choices as you did, there is no society that is going to put everyone in the same position. There will still be people who will have no choice but to live in houses that are closer together. And since everyone made the same choices, you won’t be able to blame it on irresponsibility or whatever. Then what? > [@](#): > > So what your saying is that we don’t have people selling crack at the moment? So what you’re saying is that the failure to eliminate crack dealing at a 100 percent rate is as good as doing nothing about it? > [@](#): > > Oddly enough, we still have ignorant thugs. Right now we have million of unproductive and irresponsible adults, can we conclude that what ever we have now failed? Because one thug has escaped punishment, it is better to eliminate all measures to curb thuggery? What is this standard of success or failure that you’re judging the entire society on? That if something isn’t 100 percent effective then everything should be chucked out? What do you think will happen if your dream society comes together? Will everything be 100 percent perfect for you? And will that be worth the thousands or millions of people dying and suffering from a lack of public services and regulation? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/126 "2010-04-21T01:14:40Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Any political system that is incapable of accommodating the existence of CITIES is seriously broken. Hey, it’s only nanny-state socialism that keeps us from building unburnable cities of asbestos, the way God intended. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/127 "2010-04-21T01:17:16Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Why are you so obsessed with who I am personally? Your attempts at ad hominem and appeal to emotion really aren’t getting you any where. > > If your point has merit, state it and allow it to be judges on those merits. Who I am, how much I pay, where I live, how old I am, are all irrelevant to the debate at hand. Except that your idea only works if you are independently wealthy, because you are proposing that you can afford to pay for the highways you use, the shipping of any goods you might need that travel over those highways, any medical procedures that may pop up in the future, and private fire and police departments. What kind of health insurance do you have that will continue without dropping you(or at least raising your rates through the roof) if something devastating happens to you or someone in your family? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/128 "2010-04-21T01:17:57Z")
And there are other considerations – it would not be an efficient use of resources – energy, transportation, building, roads – to ensure that every residence is far enough from its neighbors that a fire next door could never spread. We are better off collectively if we allow denser dwellings and provide fire services to everyone. Your way makes for enormous waste of resources as well as needless suffering. Again, you seem to believe that the resources you earn you create out of thin air alone and without any reliance on others. This is simply not true. You need other people for it to be possible for you to (1) accumulate money and (2) for your money to be worth anything. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/129 "2010-04-21T01:20:05Z")
As a side note, this kind of thing is annoying as hell: > [@emacknight](#): > > I choose a house far enough from my neighbour as to be safe. Was that wrong of me? > > So what your saying is that we don’t have people selling crack at the moment? > > That sounds great, do we have that now? How’s it working? > > Oddly enough, we still have ignorant thugs. Right now we have million of unproductive and irresponsible adults, can we conclude that what ever we have now failed? Jeesus Peesus, enough with the rhetorical questions, already. I decline to make your points for you. If you think you have some sort of devastating argument in favor of your position, FFS make it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/130 "2010-04-21T01:23:00Z")
So you can’t answer his questions? Why do you suppose that is? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/131 "2010-04-21T01:24:59Z")
Because as a rule, I don’t care to answer loaded questions? Would you like to have a go at them, then? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/132 "2010-04-21T01:28:51Z")
And what if I can’t answer them? What if trying represents as much of a theft of my time as taxes represent a theft of my money? Huh? Huh? What then? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/133 "2010-04-21T01:33:04Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > **Vinyl Turnip** isn’t calling me names, but rather alluding to Hobbes’ famous description of life in the State of Nature. The ‘you’ is a generic ‘you’, and doesn’t refer to me (except insofar as it refers to everyone). I’m well aware of the Hobbes line. (I’ve used it myself, (ironically, most recently in another gun thread).) In the context of this thread, it came across as a shot at other posters in the thread. If everyone is happy, I’m happy that no one has been offended. No Warning had been issued; I just want everyone in a volatile thread to be careful where they toss their remarks. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/134 "2010-04-21T01:33:42Z")
You do realize that a free market requires regulation to prevent predatory practices and such. Without a government, there can be no free market. At best, it would be a kleptocracy, and at worst, there would be no economic system at all. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/135 "2010-04-21T01:35:35Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Which is what it all boils down to. If you don’t pay, you go to jail. > > The government is taking your hard earned property, by force, and giving it to people who didn’t work for it. > > Spreading it around so that those who choose to be irresponsible get to benefit from those that aren’t. > > Health care in the US is there for those that choose to have it. It might mean a smaller tv, fewer cable channels, or a house a bit further from the city. But it is there for those willing to choose responsibility over government handouts. > > There will always be another “problem to solve.” Allowing taxation simply leads to more taxation. Once a program is in place, it will never be repealed. And it can’t be left to fail on it’s on merits, so funding (and taxes) must be increased. Then another problem arises that only taxes can solve, so throw another log onto the pile. > > When raising taxes stops being politically profitable, the solution is to run deficits, which is just another way of saying we’re going to tax you plus interest in the future. > > At some point, we need to realize the government can’t fix our problems. Then realize the government shouldn’t be fixing other people’s problems using my money. If you’ve got problems, deal with it. Using your own money and your own resources. > > Let people have the money they earn, to succeed or fail on their own. If you want health insurance and medical care, work to earn income, and use that income to pay for it. If you have money left over get as big as tv as you can. It’s time to do away with this concept that you can be part of a society without working. And it’s unfortunate to say, but people need to be able to die because of their own bad choices. > > Stop living in flood zones or below sea level, then expect the government to help you out. Stop surrounding yourself with bone-dry timber and being shocked there is a forest fire threatening your house. Earthquakes shouldn’t be a surprise if you’re living on a fault line. Tornadoes and lightening WILL strike the same place twice. > > The world isn’t meant to be kind and gentle. If you take out a loan you will pay it back. If you enter a contract, you will honor it. If you lose your job you won’t have money unless you saved. If your house burns down or your car is totaled, no one else is going to pay to have it replaced. > > No one is going to provide you insurance against the harshness of reality, it’s entirely up to you. Haven’t read the thread yet, but I saw what you did here. Hee. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/136 "2010-04-21T01:36:12Z")
It seems that the principal, if not sole benefit, that the OP seeks is that “irresponsible people are made to suffer for their irresponsibility” or something like that. Is that sufficient benefit? Some kind of moral satisfaction? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/137 "2010-04-21T01:36:22Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > As a side note, this kind of thing is annoying as hell: > > Jeesus Peesus, enough with the rhetorical questions, already. I decline to make your points for you. If you think you have some sort of devastating argument in favor of your position, FFS make it. My point is that you are trying to create this hypothetical world that is meant to sound scary. But when I look around, the current world isn’t working out the way you promised. The problem with the “let’s all pay only our own way” approach is that often my neighbors problems BECOME my problems if left unattended. “If someone is selling crack three blocks away, I want someone to bust them before their clients show up to rob me.” We have a massive problem with crack, why? Why haven’t our taxes fixed the problem? “I want poor kids to have decent educations so they will grow up to be productive and responsible adults instead of ignorant thugs.” Except, we have a nation full of unproductive and irresponsible adults and ignorant thugs. 30 years ago all these promises were made and I believed them. "I like paying taxes, because when the government makes things better for my neighbors, the benefits they receive trickle down to me. " So how’s the trickly down thingy working out for you? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/138 "2010-04-21T01:38:31Z")
What makes you think it isn’t working out? Because the world isn’t perfect? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/139 "2010-04-21T01:38:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Except that your idea only works if you are independently wealthy… No, it doesn’t even work then. Nobody who has ever lived in the history of the world could pay Canada’s national defense budget, which is twenty billion dollars a year. Bill Gates would be stone broke in a few years just paying that. There is no private option in apposition to the Canadian Forces. On top of that, **emacknight** can’t be “wealthy” in Canada without, say, a court system, or banking regulations, or police, or any of the thousands of ways tax dollars support the continuance of a free market, industrialized economy. the “well, you must be rich, mr, rich guy” arguments and “I can pay my own way” stuff is all irrelevant. You CAN’T pay your own way to live with the comforts of a modern country. It’s impossible. Maybe a rich person could do without health insurance, but how the fuck are you going to do without law enforcement or contracts or any of the very trappings that allow you to retain wealth? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749/140 "2010-04-21T01:39:08Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > It seems that the principal, if not sole benefit, that the OP seeks is that “irresponsible people are made to suffer for their irresponsibility” or something like that. Is that sufficient benefit? Some kind of moral satisfaction? I’m not making them suffer. Again the implication that I am responsible for them and the choices they make. If people act irresponsibly, how are they supposed to be treated? Like children? “oh, it’s okay dear, you bought the wrong house, let us give you another one.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxes-are-theft/536749.md?page=8)