Taxes That Don't Benefit You Directly Can Still Benefit You Indirectly

Not completely true. Taxes can be used to help alleviate market inefficiencies…In particular, to try to correct for “externalities.” For example, if an industry is causing a lot of pollution then the cost of this will not be reflected in the market and thus the product will be priced too cheaply and people will buy too much of it (relative to what they would buy if they directly paid all the costs). So, here a tax can help to lower the amount of the product that is bought and hence the costs to society as a whole.

Of course, when the tax money is then used for other things (like helping to repair the environmental damage caused by this product) then additional benefits are accrued.

Where do we see this? The last time you made a claim about nationalized health insurance (specifically, it’'s being inefficient), I noted:

—To respond to the points that you raise here; my impression is that most violent crime falls in to the category of what one might call “crimes of passion”.—

A classic mistake is thinking that how things are now is how things would be if some majro factor were different. That most crimes NOW are crimes of passion could just as well be proof that deterence is working (by deterring all but those crimes least amenable to detterance) as it is that it’s not working. However, I’m not sure it’s true that most crimes really are crimes of passion (it depends on which crimes, of course). And even crimes of necessity are affected by rises in price (which is just what police do for crime).

—don’t act a little more like honest thieves but rather cloak what they are doing in rhetoric suggesting that they have the public good in mind.—

Well most DO have the public good in mind. My account was at least a little cynical: that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a grain of truth, but to simply accept it as fact now would be to commit the genetic fallacy as well as to buy a just-so stories that may well be ahistorical.

No one would deny that some taxes go towards things that provide beneficial side-effects. No question about it.

HOWEVER, there are also taxes that are simply transfer payments from you to another individual who may be just as well off as you are or more so. Farm subsidies would be a good example.

And then there are taxes that actually have negative side-effects for you. Taxes used to fund the ‘War on Drugs’, which causes crime to increase and the size of the country’s jails to explode.

So the question as stated in the OP fails to address social policy in any meaningful way. Each tax is different. Some are good, some are bad. Some have negative effects that outweigh the good. You need to be specific.

When you meet the minimum requirements to obtain Medicaid, don’t accept it, no matter what. After all, it’s being paid for by the poor working sods that you once were yourself in your younger, working years.

Instead, if you managed to not pay into the Medicaid fund while you were younger and working, and invested those funds wisely, you should now have sufficient funds to take care of all of your own medical expenses now that you are retired.

Whut? The market has dropped 40 percent of its value and you don’t have enough to cover for that operation? Tough. Deal with it. You wanted it that way.

:smiley:

—Each tax is different. Some are good, some are bad. Some have negative effects that outweigh the good. You need to be specific.—

A better way to think of it is to separate the taxes from the spending they finance. From the viewpoint of cost-benefit analysis, the taxation itself isn’t necessarily good OR bad: it’s just a transfer of income from one person to another. What the money is later spent on doesn’t make the TAX any better or worse in terms of efficiency or fairness.

What can be bad about some taxes (most realistic taxes) is that they are inefficient: they cause people to undertake wasteful activity to avoid the tax (whether illegally, or, more devastatingly: legally). When taxes increase the price of shirts, less shirts are bought, and people have less shirts (or no shirts if they can no longer afford the shirts). That’s a real and tangible loss of social welfare. The only kinds of taxes that don’t have this sort of inefficiency (automatic costs) are head taxes: those that cannot be avoided. If I tax food, you might end up buying less food. If I, however, tax some immutable trait, like citizenship, gender, or race, there’s nothing you can do to avoid the tax.

However, since head taxes are usually unacceptable to most people, we are left with the reality that just about any non-Pigouvian tax you levy in the real world comes with associated costs. (Pigouvian taxes are a little different, because they supposedly correct some externality (though often in a rather inefficient way), which can be a real benefit of enacting the tax. However, the tax ITSELF, by which I mean the taking of the money, is still neither good or bad: people too often think of the tax revenue as “free money” or a double good. But money out of one person’s pocket and into another’s is not itself necessarily good or bad. The corrected externality is the good done, not the revenue taken by the tax (which is in most cases in excess of the amount of social good the tax does)

Now, that’s the taxation. The spending is a whole different ball of wax. It can be really well spent, or really foolishly wasted. The question is whether the benefits of spending can justify the potential costs of taxation (which, since I forgot to speak about them before, include all sorts of related costs like wasted time and money on collecting the tax, chasing down cheats, people spending time on confusing paperwork, etc). Keep in mind that these benefits can’t JUST spend the money on something of fair value to break even: they have to do so in a way that provides more benefit than there otherwise might have been had. Usually the most justifiable spending, in terms of benefit, is one that helps solve yet another externality, usually by providing public goods.

And, as I noted, that’s not even getting into the question of whether it’s RIGHT to tax to fund certain things, just because you think there might be some overall benefit. Not everyone is a classical untilitarian.

::Sigh:: Did I or did I not specifically say that I was not just talking about physical infrastructure? Why yes - I believe I did. Here is is, in point of fact:

One of only four sentences in my post. You’d have thought it was pretty unmissable, but there you go. Maybe you only read the first two sentences of a post.

pan

From your cite:

The charts on the page you linked to show quite clearly that the lowest 50% doesn’t pay income taxes. Take a look at the first graph they show titled Cumulative Percentage of Individual Income Tax Paid (1999 Estimated)

So, rather than proving my 50% figure a wild claim, your cite makes my case. Thanks.

Well, it is.

But second of all, the income tax is not the ONLY tax that people pay. People that don’t pay income taxes are not necessarily tax free. That’s crazy.
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[/QUOTE]

That is crazy. Good thing I wasn’t arguing it. I said “income tax”. I didn’t mention payroll taxes, sales taxes, etc. Straw man.

Didn’t mean to be unclear kabbes. I shouldn’t have used the words “physical infrastructure”.

You said:

43% or so of government spending is medicare, medicaid, and social security. cite

This dwarfs any money that is going to roads, bridges, highways, and schools. It also dwarfs the amount spent on legislation and the running of regulatory bodies.

legislation and the running of regulatory bodies

This is “infrastructure” of sorts. But it is still a tiny amount of overall government spending.

educated and healthy workforce

When did these become the responsability of the federal government? Education is handled at the local level. Federal money does go to local schools, but this does more harm than good IMHO. I am sure that the federal department of education spends lots of money, but they educate no one.

By “healthy workforce” do you mean socialized medicine?

A program similar to what many of you are advocating has been tried before: it’s called the olden days.

I point you at 17th, 18th and 19th Century London. Only the top echelons of society paying taxes, which were nominal, and to fund defense and military expansionism only. The result: great entrepreneurial spirit, wealth greatly concentrated in the upper quartile of the population. Also open sewers, disease-ridden armies of beggars, three-year-old children being sent up chimneys, smog killing people like flies, gin-addled prostitutes lining the streets, workhouses being set up to rid the streets of the uneducated destitute. In fact, it was as a result of conditions like this that social taxation came about.

—Well, it is.—

Cite?

—That is crazy. Good thing I wasn’t arguing it. I said “income tax”. I didn’t mention payroll taxes, sales taxes, etc. Straw man.—

Nice try, but bullshit. It was precisely BECAUSE you did not mention those other taxes that was the problem.
Here’s your post, in case you forgot: “The lowest 50% of income earners don’t pay any income taxes at all. They are the ones most likely to be using government services, and its not being paid for by them. The government is taking money out of my paycheck and giving it, in the form of services, to people who make less money than me.”

LateComerp posted a cite verifying that the bottom 50% doesn’t pay income taxes. This is the third time it has been posted to this thread.

What you did was a textbook example of a strawman. You stated an argument that I wasn’t making and then called it crazy. So double bullshit on you too, with a cherry on top. :smiley:

Here is what you said, in case your memory is faulty:

Moving on…

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If you wish to refute anything that I am saying in that paragraph, please feel free to. I really don’t see any problem with it. People in the bottom 50% are using plenty of government services.
They don’t pay income tax.
They pay payroll tax. That goes towards social security.
(Also money collected from the income taxes of the top 50% earners subsidizes this.)
So, all of the services that they get are paid for how?

I fully realize that other taxes are being paid by them. Everything from toll booths to hunting or driving liscense fees, to sales taxes. But, make no mistake, the vast majority of our large federal government is paid for by the top 50%. Someone who doesn’t pay any income tax doesn’t pay their fair share of the defense budget, to name a specific example.

Victory!
collapses from exaustion

It honestly took me an hour to get that post to stick. The board is getting rediculous in the afternoons.

Well, hell, if we are allowed to arbitrarily eliminate the regressive taxes and look only at the progressive ones, why can’t we do it the other way around? Did you know that 100% of all taxes paid by those making less than $10,000 per year are paid by the poor?!?

As for who pays for the defense budget, well, it seems sort of logical that those who have much larger amounts of property to lose pay more for its defense. Do you expect an insurance company to charge you the same amount to insure your Beamer as they do to insure an old clunker?

By the way, looking at the percentage of income tax paid by different income groups without looking also at the percent of the total income that they receive can be very deceiving!

I once got in a debate with someone on these boards who claimed that taxes are getting more and more confiscatory at the top because the percent of tax paid by the top 1% had nearly doubled over like the last 30 or 40 years. Well, it turned out that this increase was not due to the top 1% getting taxed more heavily but rather to the fact that the fraction of the total income that the top 1% earned had gone up so dramatically. In fact, it had more than doubled. And, thus the income tax (at least at the top) must have gotten less progressive over that time.

Likewise, the cite linked to above notes:

without bothering to note that this is due not to the tax system becoming more progressive but rather to the distribution of income becoming more polarized in our society!!!

Indeed, the long-and-the-short of it is that even though things like the earned income tax credit have increased progressivity of taxation at the bottom, that has not been enough to stop the gap between the income at the top vs at the bottom from widening, even in terms of after-tax income. From the CBO report (http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=3089&sequence=2#figure1-12):

—LateComerp posted a cite verifying that the bottom 50% doesn’t pay income taxes.—

Perhaps you should look a little closer at those numbers and consider that nowhere in there does it say that the bottom 50% pays no income taxes. Perhaps you’re confused by the use of cumulative percentages coupled with the use of negative income tax numbers for the bottom 20% (notice how the graph starts out in negative numbers?). Perhaps you’re confused b the use of quintiles in the first place. I’m not sure where you went wrong.

—If you wish to refute anything that I am saying in that paragraph, please feel free to.—

Why bother when you do such a good job without my help: “I fully realize that other taxes are being paid by them.”

Case closed. The textbook example of strawman arguement doesn’t include “well, later, after my mistatements have been pointed out, I expanded on all the things I previously ignored, so your response was a strawman.”

You didn’t say “the rich pay the majority of taxes” (which is true). What you said was: “They are the ones most likely to be using government services, and its not being paid for by them.” Perhaps you secretly meant “paid in full” or “paid in proportion to what I think their fair share of usage is.” But that’s not what you said.

That’s because the vast majority of the money resides in the top 50%! And, note, from your cite on the federal budget that social security taxes which you seem to not like to talk about (although you love to talk about paying of social security) account for 34% of the federal government’s revenues…that’s almost as much as individual income tax revenues at 48%. So, looking only at income tax revenues is ignoring quite a bit!

As has been recently pointed out 48% of the federal budget is collected via income taxes. This is a huge way for the government to raise revenue. The fact that 50% of wage earners are not paying this tax is relevant to this debate. I did nothing dishonest by singling this tax out, I plainly stated “income tax”.

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So following this logic, only people with children should pay for education?

That’s exactly what it says. According to your version of that graph, how much of the income tax burden falls on the bottom 50%? I am curious how we can both look at the same thing and see something different.

IANAS (statistician), so maybe I am reading it wrong. The quintiles are just breaking all earners into 5 equal groups by income. The fact that it starts negative, I assumed, was because those earners are getting back more money (earned income tax credit) then they are paying in.

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The sentance that came before the one you are quoting was directly referring to “income tax”. It’s logical to infer that I meant “and its not being paid for by them (in thier income tax).” This is further backed up by my next sentance when I again refer to paychecks (income tax).

But, now that you have actually pointed it out, I do see that your point has merit, nit-pick that is is. So, I did mis-speak. Substitute the word “them” for “their income tax” and my argument stands.

Geez, it would have been easier if you just pointed this out in the first place. Maybe if you went a little lighter on the talking down to me and heavier on content we could have gotten here sooner.

So, can you explain to poor, “confused” Debaser where I “went wrong” looking at that graph. :rolleyes: