# Taxing is theft **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 14, 2017, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936 "2017-06-14T15:07:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936/1 "2017-06-14T15:07:57Z")
So if we take the idea that all taxation is theft as true, what would be the best way to fund the government without any involuntary seizing of assets? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936/2 "2017-06-14T15:10:32Z")
There isn’t any if voluntary is the only choice. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936/3 "2017-06-14T15:12:09Z")
Well, most of the people who think that all taxation is theft are probably also the people who want to have no government at all. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936/4 "2017-06-14T15:15:40Z")
The alternative, which would be somewhat similar to taxation, and be 100% legit, would be to charge for use of currency. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936/5 "2017-06-14T15:23:58Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The alternative, which would be somewhat similar to taxation, and be 100% legit, would be to charge for use of currency. So…a sales tax? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936/6 "2017-06-14T15:26:22Z")
The government could set up businesses to compete with private companies and use the profits. Also things like toll roads, and fee for services - charge for police protection, for instance. It wouldn’t work, of course - governments are there to do things that private companies can’t or shouldn’t do, and fees for services would morph into taxation under a different name almost at once. And the temptation to pass a law limiting competition for government-run enterprises is almost irresistible. Taxation is theft in the same way that arrests are kidnapping - that is, they’re aren’t. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936/7 "2017-06-14T15:26:25Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The alternative, which would be somewhat similar to taxation, and be 100% legit, would be to charge for use of currency. Are debit/credit cards legally considered currency? The law authorizes Congress to issue currency as paper bills and metal coins. No mention of electronic transactions. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936/8 "2017-06-14T15:29:42Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The alternative, which would be somewhat similar to taxation, and be 100% legit, would be to charge for use of currency. Like a national [del]sales[/del] transaction [del]tax[/del] fee? In a simplified form the US GDP is $18 trillion. The 2017 Federal budget is $3.7 trillion. So we would need a 21% transaction fee rate. I only get taxed on my purchases, not my earnings. Let’s do it. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936/9 "2017-06-14T15:32:24Z")
How did it work before the 16th Amendment was passed, in 1913? The American government was getting operating funds from SOMEWHERE for almost a century and half. Customs and tarriffs? ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936/10 "2017-06-14T16:05:37Z")
[JP Morgan](https://jonathanturley.org/2011/02/06/j-p-morgan-and-the-reverse-bailout-that-saved-the-u-s/) and other bankers. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936/11 "2017-06-14T16:11:55Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > How did it work before the 16th Amendment was passed, in 1913? The American government was getting operating funds from SOMEWHERE for almost a century and half. Customs and tarriffs? Yup. At least the very early government was funded by tariffs. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936/12 "2017-06-14T16:17:40Z")
Taxation is not theft. I friggin’ hate that argument, because it is all “I _ **believe** _ that it is theft!” without any cogent argument attached. Modern Society is not possible without the current levels of taxation. Or as my favorite quote on the subject says; “I like paying taxes. With them I buy Civilization.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. , Supreme Court Justice 1902-1932 ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936/13 "2017-06-14T16:20:02Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > How did it work before the 16th Amendment was passed, in 1913? The American government was getting operating funds from SOMEWHERE for almost a century and half. Customs and tarriffs? Good article describing pre tax days: > **[Before the Income Tax](https://thenewamerican.com/us/culture/history/before-the-income-tax/)** > > Yes, the U.S. government did at one time run large budget surpluses, and the revenue was generated without resorting to an income tax. by Thomas R. Eddlem > [@](#): > > During peacetime, it did so largely — or even entirely — on import taxes called “tariffs.” Congress could afford to run the federal government on tariffs alone because federal responsibilities did not include welfare programs, agricultural subsidies, or social insurance programs like Social Security or Medicare. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936/14 "2017-06-14T16:22:53Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > So if we take the idea that all taxation is theft as true, what would be the best way to fund the government without any involuntary seizing of assets? Can’t wrap my head around the premise. Sure there are people who believe that they don’t get out what they pay in, but with theft you get nothing. So I don’t know, I’ll suggest government sponsored bake sales as a means to fund the government. Then the question becomes: If I don’t buy a cookie, do I still get govt. services? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936/15 "2017-06-14T16:28:34Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > How did it work before the 16th Amendment was passed, in 1913? The American government was getting operating funds from SOMEWHERE for almost a century and half. Customs and tarriffs? The operating budget was very low, even adjusting for inflation. The biggest expense was the post office. Military expenses were low because, except in times of war, the military was small (rarely above 50k, compared to 1.5 million today) and never left US territory. Roads were maintained by the states. There were no social services, health regulations, or much in the way of regulating interstate commerce, so there was no need for the agencies that oversee that. Tariffs plus postage fees brought in plenty of money to run everything. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936/16 "2017-06-14T16:48:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The government could set up businesses to compete with private companies and use the profits. Also things like toll roads, and fee for services - charge for police protection, for instance. > > It wouldn’t work, of course - governments are there to do things that private companies can’t or shouldn’t do, and fees for services would morph into taxation under a different name almost at once. And the temptation to pass a law limiting competition for government-run enterprises is almost irresistible. The other problem is that when the government has profitable assets, private companies begin campaigns to have those assets privatized (ie sold to private companies at significantly less than their market value) so the private companies can collect the profits. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936/17 "2017-06-14T16:53:27Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Taxation is not theft. I friggin’ hate that argument, because it is all “I _ **believe** _ that it is theft!” without any cogent argument attached. I’m waiting for somebody to make the argument that taxation is a violation of the First Amendment. Legal precedents have established that money is a form of speech. So if the government is forcibly taking some of my money it is infringing my ability to speak. ---
**Author:** ![somepumpkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@somepumpkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/somepumpkin)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936/18 "2017-06-14T17:14:41Z")
Invoices. Lots and lots of invoices. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936/19 "2017-06-14T17:17:14Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Like a national [del]sales[/del] transaction [del]tax[/del] fee? > > In a simplified form the US GDP is $18 trillion. > > The 2017 Federal budget is $3.7 trillion. > > So we would need a 21% transaction fee rate. > > I only get taxed on my purchases, not my earnings. > > Let’s do it. It’s regressive. No way it would pass unless we paired it with UBI and single payer health care so we’d be looking closer to a 35% tax. Of course with those, it would probably be fairly popular. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936/20 "2017-06-14T18:00:33Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Like a national [del]sales[/del] transaction [del]tax[/del] fee? > > In a simplified form the US GDP is $18 trillion. > > The 2017 Federal budget is $3.7 trillion. > > So we would need a 21% transaction fee rate. > > I only get taxed on my purchases, not my earnings. > > Let’s do it. So your purchases are transactions, but your paychecks aren’t? Why? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-is-theft/788936.md?page=2)