# Taxing the "rich" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 24, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209 "2011-07-24T21:14:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/201 "2011-07-26T18:05:17Z")
Arguments about how hard the rich work, suggests the poor are just fucking off all day. They are poor because they don’t work as hard as you do. Total crap. The poor work a hell of a lot harder than the rest of workers. They make a hell of a lot less money . Try supporting a family of 8 bucks an hour. You need all the overtime you can get just to survive. The rich are paying less taxes than they have in the last 60 years. We have a deficit. You figure it out. We have a revenue problem, not a spending problem. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/202 "2011-07-26T18:08:53Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I don’t ‘derive greater benefit’ from the system because of the system. You absolutely do, no matter where you came from or how you earned your money. The system allows you to keep your wealth in security. The system provides roads, a healthy educated workforce, domestic security. It provides the military that maintains global dominance. It provides thousands of benefits that you disproportionately benefit from. If the social contract collapsed tomorrow you would lose far, far more than the poor would - thus it is in your interest to maintain it. [QUOTE=Ben Franklin] “All the property that is necessary to a Man, for the Conservation of the Individual and the Propagation of the Species, is his natural Right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all Property superfluous to such purposes is the Property of the Publick, who, by their Laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other laws dispose of it, whenever the Welfare of the Publick shall demand such Disposition. He that does not like civil Society on these Terms, let him retire and live among Savages. He can have no right to the benefits of Society, who will not pay his Club towards the Support of it.” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/203 "2011-07-26T18:33:52Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > :rolleyes: > > No, you still haven’t answered why I need to pay a higher percentage of my wages. You can’t hand-wave it away with ‘oh, it’s just $10K’ or whatever - it’s money _I_ earned. As noted, I almost certainly invested (i.e., spent) a lot more in my career and such. Now justify taking more away from me than the guy next door. …what? I gave you several [very valid reasons](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14060905&postcount=86) and you didn’t even try to refute them, just threw them aside. If I could post 10 more valid reasons, would you say “yeah but ignoring that, why should I have to pay more taxes?!” I mean, if you don’t accept explanations like that, which cover both the philosophical and practical grounds of the question, what would you possibly accept as being a reason? Nothing, I suspect. No matter what anyone here says, you’re just going to keep repeating the same bullshit over and over and then claim no one can refute it. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/204 "2011-07-26T18:47:33Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > So your argument is, ‘the justification for paying higher %age of income tax is because, well, look where you are now! You should perpetuate the system’? Only in the same way that it behooves Google to do whatever would be necessary to help perpetuate internet usage quite a bit more than it does my retired mother. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/205 "2011-07-26T19:20:47Z")
> [@Hector the Librarian](#): > > Ironically, apart from “ciao”, the only spelling error comes in your little coda about spelling errors. Idiot. Oh, please. It’s easy after spending two days typing furiously on this board on a variety of subjects to make minor spelling errors because after a while your fingers seem to take on a life of their own. I’m sure that a board search will show that I know perfectly well how to spell ‘condescension’. I said “to” when I meant “too” yesterday, as well, and since I got this laptop for some reason I seem frequently to omit entire words. I may be an idiot, but not for the reason you are so obviously desperate to claim. > [@Hector the Librarian](#): > > What’s even funnier is that you would spend your time reading the work of a liberal! Yeah, he but he writes stories that appeal to conservatives. You know, where the bad guys actually get what’s coming to them. Unlike the case when liberals are in charge and you can kill 100 people and only go to jail for 21 years. [Cite](http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/07/25/calls-reportedly-grow-in-norway-to-extend-maximum-penalty-after-twin-attacks/) Note that the article talks about liberal law professors’ pride in Norway’s lenient punishment practices and hope they don’t get altered in the wake of this. Good fucking grief! 100 days per human life! What _is it_ with liberals and criminal love? It’s bad enough here, where, as any episode of _The First 48_ shows, the country is full of twenty-something and thirty-something assholes walking the streets and committing murders with lengthy felony records already. You guys just can’t seem to spring 'em quick enough, and now these idiots in Norway are afraid their imbicilic notions of moral superiority are going to wither in the light of day. I hope they do! ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/206 "2011-07-26T19:27:00Z")
Oh hey, since you haven’t stayed away from the thread like you promised, can you go ahead and address the points I made in [post 175?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14064893&postcount=175) If you’re going to do the “ah crap, I was called on my bullshit, bail!” thing you need to dissapear from the thread for at least a few days. None of this “I’m going to be gone for a few days except I’ll post twice in this very thread in the next 9 hours” bullshit. Of course, I’d prefer you actually learn and think about it and process it and maybe even chip away at the erroneous information you hold in your views - but I know this is impossible. You will never change, not even an inch. So the best I can hope for is that when you get a blatant refutation of your bullshit, you’ll at least do the courtesy of suddenly deciding there are off-board matters to attend to for a few days, so at least some good comes out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/207 "2011-07-26T19:29:03Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Oh, please. It’s easy after spending two days typing furiously on this board on a variety of subjects to make minor spelling errors because after a while your fingers seem to take on a life of their own. I’m sure that a board search will show that I know perfectly well how to spell ‘condescension’. I said “to” when I meant “too” yesterday, as well, and since I got this laptop for some reason I seem frequently to omit entire words. > > I may be an idiot, but not for the reason you are so obviously desperate to claim. > > Yeah, he but he writes stories that appeal to conservatives. You know, where the bad guys actually get what’s coming to them. Unlike the case when liberals are in charge and you can kill 100 people and only go to jail for 21 years. [Cite](http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/07/25/calls-reportedly-grow-in-norway-to-extend-maximum-penalty-after-twin-attacks/) Note that the article talks about liberal law professors’ pride in Norway’s lenient punishment practices and hope they don’t get altered in the wake of this. > > Good fucking grief! 100 days per human life! What _is it_ with liberals and criminal love? It’s bad enough here, where, as any episode of _The First 48_ shows, the country is full of twenty-something and thirty-something assholes walking the streets and committing murders with lengthy felony records already. You guys just can’t seem to spring 'em quick enough, and now these idiots in Norway are afraid their imbicilic notions of moral superiority are going to wither in the light of day. I hope they do! So how does all that jibe with Sandford’s liberalism? Hey, I’ve also read all of Sandford’s books, and I enjoy the justice in them. You know what else I like? Integrity and personal accountability. The kind of things that make someone stand up for the things they say and acknowledge when they’ve been full of shit. On that note, do you have **SenorBeef’s** requested info? Or are you a slimy little weasel? ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/208 "2011-07-26T19:35:42Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Only in the same way that it behooves Google to do whatever would be necessary to help perpetuate internet usage quite a bit more than it does my retired mother. You mean the internet that was built by the government, thus making it possible for Google and other companies to exist and employ millions of people? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/209 "2011-07-26T20:55:27Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > …Good fucking grief! 100 days per human life! What _is it_ with liberals and criminal love? It’s bad enough here, where, as any episode of _The First 48_ shows, the country is full of twenty-something and thirty-something assholes walking the streets and committing murders with lengthy felony records already. You guys just can’t seem to spring 'em quick enough, and now these idiots in Norway are afraid their imbicilic notions of moral superiority are going to wither in the light of day. I hope they do! Once again, the depth of your ignorance is breathtaking. Norway has a slightly different policy than that which is found in America. In America, we send relatively petty criminals to social hell-holes so that they can further advance their paranoia, fear, and sociopathy. Our message is clear: we hate your guts, and don’t give a flying fuck what happens to you in prison, you deserve it. In Norway, they set about to reform and mold the criminal into a non-criminal. Jury is out on how well that works, and you wouldn’t like it anyway. Suffice to say you are hard pressed to prove that it doesn’t work as well or better than our own. As to the perpetrator of this heinous crime, no, he will not walk out scot free in twenty one years. Actually, perhaps he might, but it would be a miracle of the kind usually associated with Lourdes. You see, the guy is nuts. Perhaps his ideology may contain shreds of rationality, but he’s nuts. In Norway, if you are dangerously nuts, you get reviewed every so often to determine if you are well enough to go about in society. If you are not well enough, you don’t get released, the sentence for your crime is not relevant to the matter. Remember the words of Mr Clemens: it is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove any lingering doubts. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/210 "2011-07-26T21:01:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Remember the words of Mr Clemens: it is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove any lingering doubts. You don’t actually contend that any such doubts linger around here, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/211 "2011-07-26T21:02:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > As to the perpetrator of this heinous crime, no, he will not walk out scot free in twenty one years. In fact, one could argue that not being about to walk around free for 21 years is the very definition of not walking away scot-free. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/212 "2011-07-26T21:09:19Z")
We can’t stop here. This is batshit country. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/213 "2011-07-26T22:00:42Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > And here we have the archetypical conservative Clearly you haven’t been reading my posts here very closely. > [@](#): > > which cover both the philosophical and practical grounds of the question The ‘philosophical and practical grounds’ can be summed up as 'well, it’s only fair the rich pay more, because, um - they have all the money". > [@](#): > > the current system created an environment in which he was able to use those qualities to rise above the station he was born into rather than be kept down by those who already held money and power. What does this have to do with all the tea in China? Have you even studied a flat rate system? Do you even know the pros and cons, are are you simply to dead set in your belief that the rich should pay more because…well, just because _stomps foot_ :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/214 "2011-07-26T22:06:26Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Clearly you haven’t been reading my posts here very closely. > > The ‘philosophical and practical grounds’ can be summed up as 'well, it’s only fair the rich pay more, because, um - they have all the money". > > What does this have to do with all the tea in China? Have you even studied a flat rate system? Do you even know the pros and cons, are are you simply to dead set in your belief that the rich should pay more because…well, just because _stomps foot_ > > :rolleyes: One, what the hell is that middle quote you responded to? I didn’t type that. Two, **SenorBeef** has done an excellent job of outlining the reasons for a progressive tax. I see no need to parrot him. Disagree with the reasons if you wish, but characterizing it as “just because” is disingenuous in the extreme. Also, I give absolutely no credibility to self-proclaimed identity. If it walks like a duck and spouts talking points like a duck, I see no reason to trust its insistence that it’s a flamingo. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/215 "2011-07-26T22:25:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Once again, the depth of your ignorance is breathtaking. > > Norway has a slightly different policy than that which is found in America. In America, we send relatively petty criminals to social hell-holes so that they can further advance their paranoia, fear, and sociopathy. Our message is clear: we hate your guts, and don’t give a flying fuck what happens to you in prison, you deserve it. > > In Norway, they set about to reform and mold the criminal into a non-criminal. Jury is out on how well that works, and you wouldn’t like it anyway. Suffice to say you are hard pressed to prove that it doesn’t work as well or better than our own. > > As to the perpetrator of this heinous crime, no, he will not walk out scot free in twenty one years. Actually, perhaps he might, but it would be a miracle of the kind usually associated with Lourdes. > > You see, the guy is nuts. Perhaps his ideology may contain shreds of rationality, but he’s nuts. In Norway, if you are dangerously nuts, you get reviewed every so often to determine if you are well enough to go about in society. If you are not well enough, you don’t get released, the sentence for your crime is not relevant to the matter. > > Remember the words of Mr Clemens: it is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove any lingering doubts. Is it really your contention that serious crime never happens in Norway, thus they’ve never found it necessary to create lengthier prison terms, or do you propose that Norway has somehow managed to unlock the secret of turning murderers, rapists, torturers and the like into happy, sunny individuals that will never, ever harm anyone again? Countless people have been hurt and killed by the people you friggin’ idiots - in your eagerness to think you’re better than everyone else - have turned loose back onto society. And as the dingbats in Norway illustrate, you’ll learn nothing absolutely nothing from it and will only work to make things worse. Cripes. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/216 "2011-07-26T22:32:49Z")
Really? Have you got recidivism rates for Norway? Also, any time you want to link this back to the tax system rather than just being another patented **SA** anti-liberal screed, feel free. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/217 "2011-07-26T22:52:16Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Really? Have you got recidivism rates for Norway? I know! I know! Pick me! [QUOTE=Time Magazine] Within two years of their release, 20% of Norway’s prisoners end up back in jail. In the U.K. and the U.S., the figure hovers between 50% and 60%. Read more: [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html#ixzz1TFqRqIpO](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html#ixzz1TFqRqIpO) [/QUOTE] For some more tasty info: > [@](#): > > Norway Has Some Of The Lowest Murder Rates In The World: In 2009, Norway had .6 intentional homicides per 100,000 people. In the same year, the United States had 5 murders per 100,000 people, meaning that the U.S. proportionally has 8 times as many homicides. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/218 "2011-07-26T23:02:10Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Also, any time you want to link this back to the tax system… Guess what? Since you’ve apparently decided to annoy me about this depite the fact that I’ve already outlined when I would return - which I assume you’re doing just to have “fun”, which you so trollingly admitted you like to do to in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14059840&postcount=115), where you blatantly admit that you don’t even try to engage me in good faith and choose to heckle me instead to get a rise out of me - I’ve decided to delay my return by one extra day for every post you make trolling me about it. Now, anything else you want to pester me about? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/219 "2011-07-26T23:09:04Z")
I… don’t think the incentives work the way you think they work on that. Ironically, sort of the same deal with the topic at hand ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/220 "2011-07-26T23:14:52Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Guess what? Since you’ve apparently decided to annoy me about this depite the fact that I’ve already outlined when I would return - which I assume you’re doing just to have “fun”, which you so trollingly admitted you like to do to in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14059840&postcount=115), where you blatantly admit that you don’t even try to engage me in good faith and choose to heckle me instead to get a rise out of me - I’ve decided to delay my return by one extra day for every post you make trolling me about it. > > Now, anything else you want to pester me about? Oh fuck yes. Wait there, I’ll be back with a list. And if you _don’t_ post here for fun, what _do_ you p- no, wait, don’t answer that. I don’t really want another essay on how you’re trying to convince liberals of a truth that has nothing to do with truth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209.md?page=12)