# Taxing the "rich" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 24, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209 "2011-07-24T21:14:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/401 "2011-08-08T00:44:25Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > Multiple posters showed that tax rates make it impossible for a reduction in taxes as a result of your lower income to make up for that difference. And, multiple times I said that I understand that and that I have never claimed that we aren’t actually living on less money than when I was working. > [@](#): > > Then you link to tax tables to show that you payed $10K in Federal income tax on that $20K, but the table that you linked to clearly shows that is impossible as the highest marginal rate is 38% and you are more likely at a lower rate. Wow, you still don’t get it do you? No matter how many times I specifically say something, you come back with something that in no way reflects what I’ve said. > [@](#): > > But none of this will make a difference, you will go to your after church coffee group and you and your friends will still talk nonsense about being “bumped into a higher tax bracket”, and how Obama raised taxes, and that there is no reason for people to try and get rich anymore as the gummint just takes it all anyway. Aaaand, as usual you go on to make incorrect assumptions about things that have not been stated. Good job. Is it any wonder that most of my posts in the Pit these days are the electronic equivalent of shaking my head in amazement? > [@quixotic78](#): > > 39 posts in this thread, including in the middle of the night and while on vacation… yes, your apathy shines almost as brightly as your intelligence. Yes, isn’t that amazing? I’m still suffering from insomnia when on vacation. Who’d have thunk? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/402 "2011-08-08T00:46:46Z")
Securitization changed the incentives around the mortgages, I think that’s pretty clear. Mortgages used to be a partnership - the bank was interested in having you repay them as much as you were interested in repaying. They took the risk, so they vetted you and made you give a reasonable case as to how you were a good customer for this loan. When you shift that risk to someone else, banks no longer have any incentive to work with you, or evaluate your ability to pay. So then it becomes high pressure sales as if they’re car salesman - do and say anything to get you to sign on the dotted lines, and then it’s out of their hands. This meant lying or entering into contracts with customers they knew would be unable to fulfill their end of the bargain. This meant using their traditional image as a mortgage partner to lull you into a false sense of security and trust, thinking that if they were helping you out, since they want this to work as much as you do, then they must be negotiating this deal in good faith. It’s not unreasonable for people to not have known about securitization and passing along the risk. It’s true that it’s their fault for ultimately agreeing to an impractical deal, but they weren’t foolish for trusting the banks - that was traditionally a relationship where both sides had an interest in keeping things above board and mutually beneficial. Create a financial instrument to remove the risk, and suddenly bankers are slimy fucks that want nothing to do with you beyond getting your signature on the line and their commission. That changes the relationship. You can still ultimately blame the owners, but you shouldn’t act as though people had no reason to trust the banks, or that the behavior of the banks didn’t change. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/403 "2011-08-08T01:10:58Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Yes, isn’t that amazing? I’m still suffering from insomnia when on vacation. Who’d have thunk? > > :smack: Immaterial. Sweetcheeks, there’s only one way to demonstrate a lack of interest in something, and posting 40 times about a subject is pretty fucking far from that one way. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/404 "2011-08-08T02:40:49Z")
> [@quixotic78](#): > > Immaterial. Sweetcheeks, there’s only one way to demonstrate a lack of interest in something, and posting 40 times about a subject is pretty fucking far from that one way. Obviously you are another who is having trouble with understanding simple English. Go back to the post of mine that you first responded to on this subject and tell me where I said that I have a lack of interest in getting taxed. If you have any working brain cells left at all, you will see that it is the opinions and intelligence of strangers on the internet that I am unconcerned with. But hey! Changing what someone posts and then repeating it a bunch of times so others believe it is one of the favorite past times in here, so have fun! ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/405 "2011-08-08T03:53:19Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Go back to the post of mine that you first responded to on this subject and tell me where I said that I have a lack of interest in getting taxed. Um, you didn’t. Then again, I didn’t say you did. Quote me and prove me wrong. G’ahn, I dare you. > [@](#): > > If you have any working brain cells left at all, you will see that it is the opinions and intelligence of strangers on the internet that I am unconcerned with. But you’re clearly full of shit. Here, I’ll put some simple equations for you to show why. Don’t worry, they’re not about taxes, so you might actually understand them instead of blowing them entirely. Zero responses about others’ opinions = lack of interest. One or more posts in response = interest. Dozens of posts, including in the middle of the night and while on vacation = shitloads of interest ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/406 "2011-08-08T04:16:55Z")
> [@quixotic78](#): > > Um, you didn’t. Then again, I didn’t say you did. Quote me and prove me wrong. G’ahn, I dare you. OK, then, what were you trying to say when you posted this? > [@previous by quixotic78](#): > > yes, your apathy shines almost as brightly as your intelligence. > [@](#): > > But you’re clearly full of shit. Here, I’ll put some simple equations for you to show why. Don’t worry, they’re not about taxes, so you might actually understand them instead of blowing them entirely. > > Zero responses about others’ opinions = lack of interest. > > One or more posts in response = interest. > > Dozens of posts, including in the middle of the night and while on vacation = shitloads of interest And this. Or do you not understand the difference between caring about taxes and not caring about inane opinions? Also, do you not understand true insomnia? I’m thinking the answer is no. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/407 "2011-08-08T04:33:53Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > OK, then, what were you trying to say when you posted this? Sorry, could you requote that for me and add emphasis where I said anything about taxes? Make it bold or big font or something. > [@](#): > > Or do you not understand the difference between caring about taxes and not caring about inane opinions? Are you honestly trying to tell me that every single post in this thread by you is about taxes? Not one is responding to an inane opinion? > [@](#): > > Also, do you not understand true insomnia? I’m thinking the answer is no. I guess not. Your insomnia forces you to make posts about subjects you have no interest in? That’s not insomnia, babe, that’s dementia. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/408 "2011-08-08T04:59:19Z")
> [@quixotic78](#): > > Are you honestly trying to tell me that every single post in this thread by you is about taxes? Not one is responding to an inane opinion? No. Didn’t say it was either. What I did say was I don’t care about your inanities. > [@](#): > > I guess not. Your insomnia forces you to make posts about subjects you have no interest in? > > That’s not insomnia, babe, that’s dementia. :rolleyes: Really, you cannot be that stupid. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/409 "2011-08-08T05:19:39Z")
Ok, going all the way back to page 1, here’s what you said: > [@curlcoat](#): > > It isn’t how it is written but in the real world that is how it sometimes seems to turn out. For example - I had to quit working in 2007 so our annual income dropped by $20K+. Due to the difference in the amount of income tax we pay (which does include state income tax), we have noticed almost no difference. I’ve made some adjustments, but really our lifestyle hasn’t changed that much, and $20K is (to me anyway) a lot of money. As multiple people have pointed out, this is mathematically impossible. I don’t know if you were being deliberately misleading or if there are other factors that affected your income/expenses, but it’s irrelevant. At this point you’re so desperate to avoid admitting you were wrong you’re attacking other users and “misinterpreting” posts to avoid responding to them. Do yourself a favor and drop it. You can’t get out of the hole by digging it deeper. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/410 "2011-08-08T06:35:29Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Ok, going all the way back to page 1, here’s what you said: > > As multiple people have pointed out, this is mathematically impossible. I don’t know if you were being deliberately misleading or if there are other factors that affected your income/expenses, but it’s irrelevant. At this point you’re so desperate to avoid admitting you were wrong you’re attacking other users and “misinterpreting” posts to avoid responding to them. Do yourself a favor and drop it. You can’t get out of the hole by digging it deeper. Did you read the whole thread? If not, please do so. If you have, why are you repeating things that 7,404,734,034 people have already said? I am not attacking anyone who hasn’t done the same to me, and I am not trying to avoid admitting I’m wrong because no one is addressing my point. For some reason, everyone seems to think they have to prove to me that we are making less money now that I am not working - well, no _shit_. I never said that we aren’t. Note that I said in that first post “we have noticed almost no difference” and “I’ve made some adjustments, but really our lifestyle hasn’t changed that much”. Those are statements of _perception_, not mathematics. But, this is the Pit and God forbid that anyone pay attention… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/411 "2011-08-08T06:39:40Z")
Well, I made $500k less last year, but I didn’t buy 2 new ferarris like I usually do, so really my finances haven’t changed that much. I guess all that extra 500k was going to taxes. If your point is that you weren’t talking about taxes in the first place then you’re still an idiot. Now you’re essentially just saying “oh I came into a thread about taxes and posted about how, after changing my expenditures and losing income, I have about the same amount of disposable income. And although I will mention how it’s the lowered tax rate that makes the difference, I’m totally not talking about making less money due to taxes, I’m just talking about my perception of how much money I have” There’s no way you come out of this thread not looking like an idiot. We could get a thousand people to come in here and tell you, in exact detail, why you’re being an idiot, and all thousand arguments will just bounce off your thick skull. You are incapable of evaluating your own words and actions and even considering that maybe what you said was wrong or stupid. No, you will just dance dance dance claiming that we misunderstood you and ganged up on you even though you can’t present an actual case in which anything you said has made sense. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/412 "2011-08-08T06:42:37Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > What I did say was I don’t care about your inanities. And yet you respond. And continue to do so. As I said originally, that’s some kickass apathy. > [@](#): > > :rolleyes: Really, you cannot be that stupid. You’re going to have to be more specific; I don’t speak crazy. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/413 "2011-08-08T07:20:41Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Did you read the whole thread? If not, please do so. If you have, why are you repeating things that 7,404,734,034 people have already said? > > I am not attacking anyone who hasn’t done the same to me, and I am not trying to avoid admitting I’m wrong because no one is addressing my point. For some reason, everyone seems to think they have to prove to me that we are making less money now that I am not working - well, no _shit_. I never said that we aren’t. Note that I said in that first post “we have noticed almost no difference” and “I’ve made some adjustments, but really our lifestyle hasn’t changed that much”. Those are statements of _perception_, not mathematics. But, this is the Pit and God forbid that anyone pay attention… :smack: I’ve read most of it, and you’ll have to forgive me if I don’t feel like sorting through all 9 pages to find all the times you’ve backpedaled and contradicted yourself. You clearly stated that, in your opinion, lower taxes were the primary cause of the lack of perceptible difference in your lifestyle, not other factors. Now you’re claiming that there were other factors and it’s the “perception” of non-difference rather than an actual non-difference. If that’s true why do you keep arguing the point? That’s exactly what everyone has been telling you. But no, clearly you feel it’s better to keep arguing and keep saying the people responding to you haven’t read what you’ve written when they’re responding to exactly what you said. Hole deep. Digging bad. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/414 "2011-08-08T08:10:08Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > I’ve read most of it, and you’ll have to forgive me if I don’t feel like sorting through all 9 pages to find all the times you’ve backpedaled and contradicted yourself. > > You clearly stated that, in your opinion, lower taxes were the primary cause of the lack of perceptible difference in your lifestyle, not other factors. Now you’re claiming that there were other factors and it’s the “perception” of non-difference rather than an actual non-difference. If that’s true why do you keep arguing the point? That’s exactly what everyone has been telling you. > > But no, clearly you feel it’s better to keep arguing and keep saying the people responding to you haven’t read what you’ve written when they’re responding to exactly what you said. > > Hole deep. Digging bad. Sigh, and you even quoted my OP on the subject. Whatever, you **Senor Beef** and **quixotic78** can pat yourself on the back for your “wins” or whatever it is you want here by completely ignoring what I am saying - kind of difficult to backpedal if I haven’t changed anything, eh? The level of stupid-on-purpose on this one has been high for even the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/415 "2011-08-08T08:26:03Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Sigh, and you even quoted my OP on the subject. Whatever, you **Senor Beef** and **quixotic78** can pat yourself on the back for your “wins” or whatever it is you want here by completely ignoring what I am saying - kind of difficult to backpedal if I haven’t changed anything, eh? The level of stupid-on-purpose on this one has been high for even the Pit. Jeebus. If there’s anything I hate more than blatant, intentional obtuseness, it’s the debate “tactic” of flipping a person’s response instead of accepting the reality of being completely, totally, unequivocally wrong. Again: Hole Deep. Digging bad. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/416 "2011-08-08T13:46:18Z")
If not related to factual information about tax rates, what was the point of your original post in this thread? Summarize it in one statement. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/417 "2011-08-08T20:35:10Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Jeebus. If there’s anything I hate more than blatant, intentional obtuseness Hating yourself is not healthy. > [@](#): > > it’s the debate “tactic” of flipping a person’s response instead of accepting the reality of being completely, totally, unequivocally wrong. Look, I have tried to explain/clarify/elaborate to you and your brethren for days and the 3-4 of you are just not getting it. So I am left with assuming that either you all are really that stupid, or you are just arguing for the sake of doing so. No matter which option is the correct one, it has become extremely boring to continue to repeat myself ( **Senor Beef** , are you listening here?) so I’m not going to any more. Unless you can come up with something new - or I get REALLY bored - this will be my last post in this thread. As I said, you all can pat yourselves on the back and call it a “win”, I don’t really care. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/418 "2011-08-08T20:46:38Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Look, I have tried to explain/clarify/elaborate to you and your brethren for days and the 3-4 of you are just not getting it. So I am left with assuming that either you all are really that stupid, or you are just arguing for the sake of doing so. No matter which option is the correct one, it has become extremely boring to continue to repeat myself ( **Senor Beef** , are you listening here?) so I’m not going to any more. Unless you can come up with something new - or I get REALLY bored - this will be my last post in this thread. As I said, you all can pat yourselves on the back and call it a “win”, I don’t really care. The problem here is that we do get it, we understand your posts entirely and have been responding to them directly. It’s you who’s being obtuse. You’ve had 40+ posts to make an intelligent argument and have chosen instead to backpedal, move the goalposts, “misinterpret” other people’s comments, and be insulting. We don’t want to “win”, we want to fight ignorance. You’ve demonstrated the problem with that though, ignorant people don’t want their ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/419 "2011-08-09T02:44:44Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Look, I have tried to explain/clarify/elaborate to you and your brethren for days and the 3-4 of you are just not getting it. So I am left with assuming that either you all are really that stupid, or you are just arguing for the sake of doing so. Really? You can’t even conceive of a third option, which is, to put it charitably, that maybe you failed to communicate effectively? In _nine_ pages, not _one_ person has said, “Hey, I see what **curlcoat** is saying.” And hell, you’re not even within a country mile of having someone say that you’re right. You’ve got maybe a half-dozen vocal critics, and who knows how many silent ones, who say that you’re not making sense, and you can’t even bring yourself to say, “Well, maybe in dozens of posts I inadvertently said something that confused people.” It’s amazing, really. I don’t think it’s admirable, per se, but it’s definitely amazing. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209/420 "2011-08-09T04:19:03Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > The problem here is that we do get it, we understand your posts entirely and have been responding to them directly. It’s you who’s being obtuse. You’ve had 40+ posts to make an intelligent argument and have chosen instead to backpedal, move the goalposts, “misinterpret” other people’s comments, and be insulting. > > We don’t want to “win”, we want to fight ignorance. You’ve demonstrated the problem with that though, ignorant people don’t want their ignorance fought. And, I could say the same about you - which of us is right? How about the person who is telling me that **my** perceptions of **my** financial situation are wrong. That is the core of the whole thing - we lost +/- $20K net income, and in four years have seen almost no impact on our lifestyle. The biggest change that has been made is the amount of tax we no longer pay. Yet you all spend all this energy either trying to prove to me that I wasn’t paying $20K more in taxes when I was working (WTF?) or that because we are “only” paying $8K or $10K or whatever less in taxes we couldn’t possibly be living the same way we were previously. And then you don’t see how this is not only stupid, it’s arrogant - you simply cannot argue that my perception of our lifestyle is wrong, nor can you change facts. Yet you continue to attempt to show me that I’m “wrong”, heavily sprinkled with insults. Or, in the case of **SenorBeef** , you go off on wild exaggerated tangents that have no basis in reality, much less anything I’ve said. At some point even the most stubborn give up banging their heads on brick walls. I am not all that stubborn, so I stop (or, at least I’m trying to) long before bruises appear on my forehead. > [@quixotic78](#): > > Really? You can’t even conceive of a third option, which is, to put it charitably, that maybe you failed to communicate effectively? The irony it burns! Look at what **kenetic** says above - when I have attempted to clarify (not that anyone actually had the manners to ask for clarification), I’ve been told I’m “backpedaling, moving the goalposts, and “misinterpreting” other people’s comments”. **Dragonash** had some of the same opinions/beliefs that I do and you all did the feeding frenzy on him too. Then you have the gall to complain because I haven’t fallen all over myself wondering if I haven’t been clear… :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/taxing-the-rich/590209.md?page=22)