# TdF2017 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 2, 2017, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342 "2017-07-02T12:26:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342/61 "2017-07-15T18:33:30Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Aaaaaand that’s why you need a strong team. Lumpy stage today with only a couple 3rd category climbs, with a finish that kicks up at 9% in the final 500m. A day you should be expecting time gaps, and where the mere size of the surviving peleton will mean that you might lose tens of seconds just because the 27th place rider left a 1’ gap to the 26th place rider. > > Expecting this, most of the top GC was very close to the front. Froome, Uran, and Dan Martin finish at 1’, Bardet and Yates at 5’. But Landa finished at 15’, Contador and Quintana at 22’, and Aru in a huge fail for Astana comes in at 26’ losing yellow and now with just 4’ on Bardet and 10’ on Uran. You simply cannot be riding that far back in the peleton on a stage with a finish like that if you expect to win a grand tour. I guess I still don’t understand cycling tactics. If the Sky team are trying to help Froome, and Froome just stays behind them, why can’t Aru just stay behind Froome? If Aru doesn’t have a team to help him, just leech off someone who does. Obviously, there’s no one to bring him water bottles and such. and the Sky team aren’t going to wait for him like they will for Froome. I haven’t seen today’s stage yet; usually watch the evening broadcast, so maybe it will make more sense when I see it. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342/62 "2017-07-15T19:12:48Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I guess I still don’t understand cycling tactics. If the Sky team are trying to help Froome, and Froome just stays behind them, why can’t Aru just stay behind Froome? If Aru doesn’t have a team to help him, just leech off someone who does. > > Obviously, there’s no one to bring him water bottles and such. and the Sky team aren’t going to wait for him like they will for Froome. I haven’t seen today’s stage yet; usually watch the evening broadcast, so maybe it will make more sense when I see it. I think it’s just a loss of concentration for Aru, which you’re a lot more vulnerable to if you’re on your own, not supported by a well-oiled team machine. Maybe a lack of planning on behalf of Astana in not giving enough attention to the final ramp, although it’s difficult to believe such an experienced outfit would overlook something like that. Sort of ironic that the GC leaders can knock seven bells out of each other over a huge mountain stage, go life and death and roll over the line basically together. But a far more routine stage like today can force a 20 second selection. Never seen Froome crack like he did on Friday, thought there was an outside chance he might fold yesterday. But he came back strong and looks like he’s in charge. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342/63 "2017-07-15T19:23:47Z")
Well yeah, staying behind Froome would have been Aru’s best bet, but easier said than done. The run-in to the final 500m climb was flat and twisty, and the pace was insane. Team Sunweb, BMC, Quickstep, and Dimension Data were pushing the pace hard for their potential stage winners Michael Matthews, Greg van Avermaet, Philippe Gilbert, and Edvald Boassen Hagen. These are guys who typically contest the spring classic one-day races. They’re stronger and faster than the GC contenders, and the teams above weren’t concerned about GC (except Quickstep for Dan Martin, but they were using their lead-out for Gilbert to do double duty for Martin, who’s more of a classics sort of guy than the rest of the GC contenders barring Uran). Point is, the skinny lightweights who are the main GC guys are not well suited to mixing it up at the front of the peleton when it’s doing close to 80kph. Every time you go around a corner you have to sprint back up to speed, and the power output is just beyond guys like Aru or Bardet. Power to weight they might excel at, but here we’re talking about raw sustained watts, and its the bigger guys who can do that. So if you’re Froome, you’re following a guy who’s making sure that he’s not leaving a gap behind him, and who knows that if he blows up it’s no big deal just swing wide and let the next guy work. If you’re Aru behind Froome, you’re following a guy who will actively try to exploit it if you lose a bike length. Then you hit the bottom of the climb. This is 500m - a sprint, not a sustained climb. Aru’s superiority in w/kg is irrelevant. This is a finish for the puncheurs. It’s a peak w/kg thing. The huge watts the pure sprinters put out don’t help them, because their extra weight is too much to push up the 9% grade, the skinny mountain goats of the GC can’t dominate an anaerobic contest like this. Their superiority is aerobic. So it’s the Valverdes and van Avermaets who are going to blast up the hill the fastest. Most of the GC guys aren’t going to be able to quite keep up, though Uran on a good day and Dan Martin if he weren’t still hurting from Porte’s crash (and Valverde of course if he hadn’t crashed out) are the exceptions. But the climb is fast enough that drafting still helps, so again you want to be following someone who’s actively trying to keep you out of the wind. Everything is moving at a blinding pace, so any tiny misstep opens up a one second gap, and suddenly you’re five bike lengths back and don’t have time to recover. Aru absolutely could and should have tried to hitch on to someone else’s train, but it’s not always so easy. Moving forward in the peleton when it’s moving that fast is hard for the little guys, and having a bigger, stronger teammate in front of you can make all the difference. Now, if you’re strong enough this doesn’t matter. Uran had no help, and he was fine. But Uran is a guy with top ten results in races like Liege-Bastogne-Liege, Clasica de San Sebastian, and Strade Bianchi. Of the top 5 he’s by far the strongest in this sort of race (though Dan Martin is close and would ordinarily have a better finishing kick on something this steep). Martin also had Stybar pulling for him. Bardet is not suited to this classics-type riding, but was glued to Oliver Naesen and Jan Bakelants. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2017, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342/64 "2017-07-15T19:49:30Z")
Ooooh, drama in Astana-ville: > [@Finish line interview with Michael Valgren of Team Astana](#): > > [Asked what happened with Aru]. > > I don’t know. Ask him. I tried to take him to the front, but he didn’t stick on my wheel. Did we lose the jersey? > > [After being told Froome has the jersey after the stage]. > > Good. > > I knew the run-in from two years ago, so I knew it was a hard one. It was hectic with the big downhill and everybody coming from the side. It was kind of a lottery to be in the front. Sometimes you’re there and sometimes you get snapped by the bunch. > > I don’t know what happened to Fabio, to be honest. We were three guys there in the end, so it was hard to keep in the front. Ouch. So it wasn’t the team so much as Aru just couldn’t follow. Does not bode well for the last week. Also somewhat surprising that Valgren would say that out loud. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2017, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342/65 "2017-07-16T01:35:33Z")
This was also a perfect stage and finish for Peter Sagan. Oh well. Best not to dwell. Vokler made his typical jump to the break and then proceeded to glass pedal his way until he was dropped and shot to the rear of the peloton. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342/66 "2017-07-16T15:59:30Z")
Excellent stage and well done, Mollema. Froome remains unflappable. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342/67 "2017-07-16T16:08:01Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Froome remains unflappable. If Froome can rejoin the group after falling behind at the start of the climb, he deserves to win. Or if the rest of the GC contenders can’t attack when Froome’s in trouble, they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2017, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342/68 "2017-07-16T16:37:08Z")
Well, in all fairness, Aru did just that in the first week and was shouted down for it. So he wasn’t about to do so again. Nor was anyone else, I guess. That said, they couldn’t shake him when he did rejoin so they probably didn’t have the legs or were saving them for the last week. And how about Landa? Very impressive and may be the new lieutenant of Sky. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342/69 "2017-07-16T17:24:55Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Well, in all fairness, Aru did just that in the first week and was shouted down for it. So he wasn’t about to do so again. Nor was anyone else, I guess. If you see someone have a problem and then attack, I can see how that’s kind of a dick move. But if an attack is already happening and the leader has an issue, it ought to be okay to press the attack. There’s room for abuse if not; the yellow jersey could just call for a bike change or a new wheel whenever he got in trouble. > [@](#): > > That said, they couldn’t shake him when he did rejoin so they probably didn’t have the legs or were saving them for the last week. I keep hearing how much of an advantage it is to ride in a group, even on climbs. Maybe they couldn’t drop Froome once he rejoined, because now he shared that advantage. All the more reason to drop him when he was vulnerable. If the rest of the GC contenders, as a group, weren’t faster than a (almost) lone Froome on a climb, no wonder he wins. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342/70 "2017-07-16T17:40:54Z")
They saw him have a mechanical problem. He was with them and suddenly gone. With all the eyes and radios, there’s little doubt they knew what happened almost immediately. I think they chose not to attack. That said, Froome burned a lot of energy rejoining. The minute he caught them, someone like Aru or Bardet should have put the hammer down. they didn’t. I think they simply didn’t have the legs. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342/71 "2017-07-16T17:48:23Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > They saw him have a mechanical problem. He was with them and suddenly gone. With all the eyes and radios, there’s little doubt they knew what happened almost immediately. I think they chose not to attack. I’ll have to watch it again, but wasn’t AG2R already pushing when Froome had the problem? I don’t think they have the obligation to stop an attack to wait for him. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342/72 "2017-07-16T17:55:52Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I’ll have to watch it again, but wasn’t AG2R already pushing when Froome had the problem? I don’t think they have the obligation to stop an attack to wait for him. They were controlling the group tempo at the front, for sure. Could/should they have gone? That’s subjective I guess. It appeared to me like they chose not to when he dropped back and then again when he rejoined. There was an attempt by AG2R a little later but Froome had already recovered and responded without Landa’s help. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342/73 "2017-07-17T15:39:59Z")
TIL that Landa is leaving Sky and going to MovieStar next season. I guess Quintana isn’t panning out as they’d hoped and Valverde is getting a bit long in the tooth. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342/74 "2017-07-17T15:54:55Z")
Says something about expectations when a guy who’s just 27 “isn’t panning out as you’d hoped” but in the 8 grand tours he’s entered in the last five seasons has placed 2nd, 1st, DNF (crash), 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 1st, and 2nd. Yeah, that guy sucks. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342/75 "2017-07-17T16:09:33Z")
I’m not hearing that they’ll get rid of Quintana. Just that they’re adding Landa. Who will be working for whom remains to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342/76 "2017-07-17T19:30:29Z")
I have to stay out of this thread because I record the stages and then try to catch up. The organizers of the TdF have kind of changed things up with the introduction of a Poggio like hill at the finish of several stages. I’m not sure Aru understood the importance of being in the front at the beginning of that climb. I have never seen a response like Michael Valgren’s. Valgren understands someone not being able to hold his wheel at the end of a stage. His would not have responded that way if it was simply a bad day for Aru. That was dislike showing. Poor management by Vinokourov. Things have gotten a little more interesting. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342/77 "2017-07-17T20:17:13Z")
He walked it back a little the next day. But, yeah, I’m not convinced it came from a place of respect for Aru. Seems personal. In which case, what can Vinokourov do except start replacing people? Can’t do that in the middle of a race. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342/78 "2017-07-19T00:42:34Z")
Crosswinds and echelons are so entertaining. Scarcely need mountains with more stages like that. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342/79 "2017-07-19T14:07:53Z")
WTF?.. Was Contador just using an inhaler on the base of the climb of Col de Galibier? Is that permitted? Kittel out due to injury. I guess his job was more or less done for the tour. ---
**Author:** ![gregorio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@gregorio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gregorio)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342/80 "2017-07-19T15:58:37Z")
All the top tour riders have asthma, dontcha know? [The Climb GIF - Find & Share on GIPHY](http://gph.is/29q9kqb) (gif) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tdf2017/790342.md?page=5)