# Tea Party = treason **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861 "2011-07-30T21:09:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/181 "2011-08-02T03:07:23Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Paraphrasing someone > > “I won. Deal with it.” But isn’t a complete refusal to accept the results of an election the core ideal of the Tea Party? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/182 "2011-08-02T05:02:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But isn’t a complete refusal to accept the results of an election the core ideal of the Tea Party? The core ideal of the Tea Party is whatever the Republican Talking Points says it is! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/183 "2011-08-02T06:32:42Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > The core ideal of the Tea Party is whatever the Republican Talking Points says it is! To a certain extent, but I think one thing we’ve seen in the last few weeks it that the Republican establishment is trying to ride a tiger. Sure, they loved it when the Tea Party was attacking the Obama administration. But now they’re finding it difficult to turn the Tea Party off when it’s time to sit down and do business. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/184 "2011-08-02T09:07:46Z")
> [@tullsterx](#): > > The Tea Party is trying to save our country from itself and people like you. I can’t believe that there are those out there that think we should just keep running our national debt up and up, or that the federal budget shouldn’t be balanced. > > This is not a case of Right vs. Left, this is case of Rational Thought vs. Insanity. Yes, because when Republicans were in charge they found enough spending cuts to balance the budget, without getting rid of the military, medicare, or social security. They were even able to lower taxes on the most wealthy they found so many easy cuts. And they ran a surplus, so we paid off the debt. What’s that? They gleefully spent ludicrous amounts of money, lowered taxes on the richest, sent the debt soaring, and ran the country into the ground? When they had control? Oh. You’re right that it is a case of rational thought vs insanity. You just aren’t on the side you think you are. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Republicans act like they can lower taxes on the most wealthy, and magically nobody has to make that up. But they do. They are just shifting the burden onto everyone else, which hurts the economy because most people can’t afford that burden. Historically, lowering taxes on the richest while sending the country’s infrastructure to hell has never been a good way to get an economy going. We do need to make some tough cuts. We will take a hit to quality of life. But not everything should be cut. It would be counterproductive to let our infrastructure continue to crumble and gut things like Pell grants. But first of all, we need to be able to debate these things. If, for some reason, taxes should be at historic lows for the most wealthy, while placing more burden on the middle class is more important than helping the economy, then that argument can be made. It won’t be, but it could be. What we don’t need is the Tea Party and their pie-in-the-sky, blind idealism, eliminating debate and sticking to their guns because “God doesn’t want the richest Americans to pay taxes.” ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/185 "2011-08-02T11:30:15Z")
You have to read the comments on newspaper articles to get past the bullshit and see where the tea party is really at. The pattern is that they hate the “undeserving,” and want to punish them. There’s not really a sentiment that the great nation will somehow be restored by lower spending (an argument that makes no sense, and defies history). The tea party is made of resentment, and resentment only. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/186 "2011-08-02T12:49:04Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > You have to read the comments on newspaper articles to get past the bullshit and see where the tea party is really at. The pattern is that they hate the “undeserving,” and want to punish them. There’s not really a sentiment that the great nation will somehow be restored by lower spending Isn’t it possible to believe that spending less on the “undeserving” will make the country greater? ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/187 "2011-08-02T13:53:02Z")
It becomes a circular argument. Even if there is no measurable index by which the country is greater, it’s greater because you have punished the wicked and disciplined the barbarians. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/188 "2011-08-02T14:58:48Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Isn’t it possible to believe that spending less on the “undeserving” will make the country greater? It is possible to believe many unfounded propostions. Mere belief does not justify them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/189 "2011-08-02T15:04:14Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > It is possible to believe many unfounded propostions. Mere belief does not justify them. Yeah, but **tnetennba** ’s point was that they don’t even have that mere belief. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/190 "2011-08-02T15:14:02Z")
The baggers are in love with sophistry. They respond to important discussions with responses they can read off the signs they carry. We have a spending problem not a revenue problem. We are on the road to socialism. Small government is good government. Let the economy crash, nothing will happen. Baggers bring absolutely nothing to the table but intransigence. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/191 "2011-08-02T16:16:17Z")
> [@SherwoodAnderson](#): > > According to Wikipedia, the first debt ceiling law was enacted to enable more flexible borrowing for WWI. AFAIK, the US is the only country that has a debt ceiling. Since 1917, up until now through shifting majorities it’s been lifted no strings attached. Even in the years after WWII when the federal debt was about 30% higher (compared to GDP) than it is today. > > So yeah, that’s pretty much what’s supposed to happen - congress votes to lift it when it needs lifting, no strings attached. > > Well you know, congress gets to decide once a year how much money is going to be spent and it gets to decide how much revenue is gonna be brought in. The debt ceiling is superflous which is why it’s usually raised as a part of the budget in latter years. > > Because they included an amendment that would make it much harder to raise taxes in the future and setting a hard cap on fed spending at 18% (?) of GDP. You’re merely arguing that there should be no debt ceiling at all, which is a separate issue entirely. The reality is that it _does_ exist and you want to pretend like it doesn’t. You think that since past Congresses have raised it with no strings, that it’s illogical to now say “enough is enough”. > [@SherwoodAnderson](#): > > Well the republican congressional leadership said “give us what we want or we wont raise the debt ceiling, allowing a default to happen”. No-one’s ever dared do that before. I guess next time around, progressives say: “revoke the 2nd amendment or else we wont raise the debt ceiling”. Or something. “Give us an up or down vote on single payer in the Senate”, the debt ceiling gets raised if the bill passes congress and is signed by the POTUS. Fair cop? So what? The Democrats are saying “give us what we want, forget about what you want, or we won’t raise the debt ceiling.” The logic in this thread is just bizarre- the party that actually passed bills trying to raise the ceiling is somehow being called the hostage-taker. How is that conclusion possible unless you assume _a priori_ that the Democratic plan is the good one? You can’t. Which means that those in this thread calling the Tea Party treasonous are only doing so because they disagree with the Tea Party’s politics. I could use that logic to call Democrats treasonous for absolutely anything they do that I disagree with…but I don’t, because unlike the pitchfork-wielders in this thread, I’m not an idiot. Secondly, your hypothetical doesn’t apply. Your demands are unrelated to the deficit and debt, while the Republican demands are directly related to the issue that the debt ceiling is tied to. Now if you wanted to say something like “We won’t fund the NIH unless you pass UHC” or “We won’t subsidize corn unless you pass farm-runoff treatment laws”, then it would make sense. But again, my main point is that “Democrats not meeting Republican demands is fine, but Republicans not meeting Democrat demands is treason” is high up on the list of “Dumbest Fucking Things Ever Posted on the Dope”, yet appallingly common. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/192 "2011-08-02T16:36:17Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > The logic in this thread is just bizarre- the party that actually passed bills trying to raise the ceiling is somehow being called the hostage-taker. How is that conclusion possible unless you assume _a priori_ that the Democratic plan is the good one? Exactly - Republicans are always wrong, and Democrats are always right. > [@](#): > > I don’t, because unlike the pitchfork-wielders in this thread, I’m not an idiot. I knew there was a reason you didn’t fit in around here. 🙂 Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/193 "2011-08-02T16:56:21Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > The logic in this thread is just bizarre- the party that actually passed bills trying to raise the ceiling is somehow being called the hostage-taker. How is that conclusion possible unless you assume _a priori_ that the Democratic plan is the good one? You can’t. Talk about dumb logic. By your logic, if some Mujahedeen capture some American soldiers and put a gun to their head and tell the US to get out of the Middle East completely or they pull the trigger, the US would be equally culpable as the “hostage-taker” here. After all, they have an option to save those soldier’s lives. You cannot assume, a priori, that the US position is the correct one right? If the US refused and the soldiers were shot it’d be as much the US fault as the Mujahedeen’s fault. :rolleyes: Obama and Reid wanted a [“clean” debt ceiling vote](http://www.businessinsider.com/clean-debt-ceiling-vote-just-fails-2011-5) which republicans turned down. Republicans took the economy hostage and told the Democrats to agree to drastic spending cuts or else the economy gets one in the head. One one side is holding a threat over the other side they are the hostage takers. Because the other side does not capitulate does not make them equally culpable. This was not a budget fight. This was a fight over meeting obligations _already incurred_. Obligations that largely [fall on the back of Republicans](http://blogs.reuters.com/david-cay-johnston/2011/08/02/fact-free-fiscal-farce/) far more than Democrats to begin with. Regardless of how you feel about higher or lower spending the Republicans hijacked the debt ceiling as a means to leverage concessions they could not otherwise get. Those are the hostage takers. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/194 "2011-08-02T17:08:21Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > You’re merely arguing that there should be no debt ceiling at all, which is a separate issue entirely. The reality is that it _does_ exist and you want to pretend like it doesn’t. You think that since past Congresses have raised it with no strings, that it’s illogical to now say “enough is enough”. It is evil to say, “I will destroy the world economy unless you do exactly what I say.” Which is what the Tea Party idiots were saying. Nothing you do or say can change the fact that they threatened to put millions of people out of work and cause at the least a second recession to get their way. That’s not the action a good person would take. Ever. > [@](#): > > So what? The Democrats are saying “give us what we want, forget about what you want, or we won’t raise the debt ceiling.” No, the Republicans already did the evil act of threatening the world economy. But the Dems know that half the Republicans aren’t idiot Tea Baggers, so they’re asking the sane bit to lower their demands. If the Tea Party got their way they would have demanded default because their dipshit leaders have convinced the rank-and-file that everything will be roses and angel-farts if default happened. > [@](#): > > The logic in this thread is just bizarre- the party that actually passed bills trying to raise the ceiling is somehow being called the hostage-taker. You don’t understand the issue. The debt ceiling is a procedural thing. It’s a bookkeeping task. You need to take a minute to understand what the Republicans did. They took a bookkeeping task and said, unless you do what we say, we’ll destroy the world economy. That’s hostage taking. Just because you’re on the right, doesn’t mean that the right can do no wrong. They happened to do something outright vile and disgusting, and people like you cheering them on is why they get away with it. You should ask more from your elected officials. Grinning when they do outrageous, evil things makes you part of the problem. > [@](#): > > How is that conclusion possible unless you assume _a priori_ that the Democratic plan is the good one? You can’t. The Democratic plan was to not destroy the world economy. If you can’t understand that a non-destroyed economy is better than a destroyed one, well, that doesn’t speak highly for your policy opinions. > [@](#): > > Which means that those in this thread calling the Tea Party treasonous are only doing so because they disagree with the Tea Party’s politics. I could use that logic to call Democrats treasonous for absolutely anything they do that I disagree with…but I don’t I personally wouldn’t call them all treasonous. I would say the people working for secession are at least a little treasonous. The Tea Party are ignorant, uninformed and outright delusional. But I’ll grant that most of them aren’t treasonous. > [@](#): > > , because unlike the pitchfork-wielders in this thread, I’m not an idiot. No, you’ll just cheer-on vile and evil acts because your team-spirit is stronger than your disdain of douchebaggery. [snip] > [@](#): > > But again, my main point is that “Democrats not meeting Republican demands is fine, but Republicans not meeting Democrat demands is treason” is high up on the list of “Dumbest Fucking Things Ever Posted on the Dope”, yet appallingly common. Not understanding that _the Democrats wanted the procedural authority to pay the bills we’ve already amassed and the Republicans decided to deny that authority, putting the world economy in jeopardy, so they could get partisan political goals enacted_, is pretty fucking dumb too. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/195 "2011-08-02T20:54:10Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I could use that logic to call Democrats treasonous for absolutely anything they do that I disagree with…but I don’t, because unlike the pitchfork-wielders in this thread, I’m not an idiot. > [@Lobohan](#): > > Grinning when they do outrageous, evil things makes you part of the problem. > […] > No, you’ll just cheer-on vile and evil acts because your team-spirit is stronger than your disdain of douchebaggery. > […] > Not understanding that _the Democrats wanted the procedural authority to pay the bills we’ve already amassed and the Republicans decided to deny that authority, putting the world economy in jeopardy, so they could get partisan political goals enacted_, is pretty fucking dumb too. You’re posting in Great Debates, not the Pit, and you’re both out of line. You can’t call other people idiots in this forum, you can’t call them dumb, and you can’t call them evil. Don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/196 "2011-08-02T22:22:21Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > The core ideal of the Tea Party is whatever the Republican Talking Points says it is! You have that completely ass backwards. The Republican party refused to address runaway debt and they were bitch slapped in the elections along with Democrats. They then went on to act on their platform of a balanced budget. Imagine that, politicians promising to be responsible with our money and actually doing something about it. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/197 "2011-08-02T23:39:49Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You don’t understand the issue. The debt ceiling is a procedural thing. It’s a bookkeeping task. > > You need to take a minute to understand what the Republicans did. They took a bookkeeping task and said, unless you do what we say, we’ll destroy the world economy. That’s hostage taking. Just because you’re on the right, doesn’t mean that the right can do no wrong. They happened to do something outright vile and disgusting, and people like you cheering them on is why they get away with it. You should ask more from your elected officials. No, Democrats just _wish_ it were a procedural thing. It’s more than a bookkeeping task. It’s meant to be a reminder that “Hey, this is really getting out of hand here. Perhaps we should do something about this.” And then when the Republican house passes two bills that 1) avert disaster by raising the debt ceiling and 2) do something to address the problem, Democrats cry that 1 doesn’t count because 2 is part of the deal. That just makes it obvious that Democrats aren’t actually concerned with the debt ceiling at all. They don’t care if it’s raised or not. The only thing they care about is spending the US into bankruptcy. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/198 "2011-08-03T00:12:10Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > The only thing they care about is spending the US into bankruptcy. The only thing Republicans care about is reaping the rewards of the republic without paying any taxes. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/199 "2011-08-03T00:23:45Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Paraphrasing someone > > “I won. Deal with it.” Everybody else in Congress won, too. And there are a lot more of them than you. Now think a little harder about what that means. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/200 "2011-08-03T00:47:19Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > The only thing they care about is spending the US into bankruptcy. Again… it hasn’t been that long since the Republicans were in control, during which time they were delighted to spend the US into oblivion, making sure to shift the burden for their ludicrous spending onto those who could least afford it. It was entirely unsurprising that their “spend every last penny we can and send the bill to the middle class” plan cratered the economy. What IS surprising is that, a couple years later, you have completely forgotten the whole thing. Actually, what seems to have happened is that history has been twisted in your mind, so that Democrats have been in control the entire last decade. They are responsible for all spending initiated during that time. But ask yourself this: If Democrats really were in control for the last decade, and Bush never existed, would the spending have been so idiotic? So short-sighted? Would not, perhaps, more money have been spent on rebuilding our devastated infrastructure, thus reducing unemployment while fixing America on the cheap? Would not more of the spending have been in the area of education, providing a better workforce for the future? Would not there have been some increase in taxes on the most wealthy to offset the gargantuan spending, a tactic history shows to be far superior than cutting taxes on the most wealthy and gutting the middle class during an economic crisis? I think if you look at just how incredibly foolhardy the unthinkable spending of the Bush years was, it will dawn on you that it could not possibly have been done by Democrats. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861.md?page=11)