# Tea Party = treason **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861 "2011-07-30T21:09:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/21 "2011-07-30T23:30:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A system they are trying to subvert and break. … by being legally elected to office? I’m a lefty. I’ve voted in the past two primaries for Dennis Kucinich and Bill Richardson, respectively. I think the Tea Partiers are wrong and Rand Paul’s mother dresses him funny. But they’re merely wrong, not treasonous. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/22 "2011-07-30T23:30:55Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > “Treason” has a specific definition and Tea Partiers do not meet it. > > That said I think what they are on about is criminal. If not in a strictly legal sense certainly in a moral sense. Right. Treason, in the United States, has a very specific legal meaning. [QUOTE=US Constitution] Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. [/QUOTE] What the Tea Party is doing, regardless of how bad it is, isn’t treason. The founders of our country were afraid of Treason prosecutions and the abusive British courts who construed treason every which way. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/23 "2011-07-30T23:33:33Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > The plan is to either stop any solution in the senate or veto it. Then when the worst happens, blame the Republicans. It has worked before. Why not… the republicans are currently blaming the democrats … and then many of them are sounding like freaking kindergardeners with the Obamma-this and Obamma-that and Obummer and other pretty damned juvenile name bashing. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/24 "2011-07-30T23:40:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If he vetoes that bill, it will have the exact same effect as Congress not raising the debt limit. So, if one is trying to crash the world economy, then the other is, too. Here we go again; the standard right wing attempt to pretend there’s no difference between the two sides. It’s easier than trying to defend something as worthless as the Republicans I suppose. > [@thelabdude](#): > > The plan is to either stop any solution in the senate or veto it. Then when the worst happens, blame the Republicans. It has worked before. The Republicans have no interest in a solution. They want as big a disaster as possible, they’ve stated in the past that making Obama a one term President is their top goal. And they don’t care if they create a second Great Depression in the process. > [@robert\_columbia](#): > > What the Tea Party is doing, regardless of how bad it is, isn’t treason. The founders of our country were afraid of Treason prosecutions and the abusive British courts who construed treason every which way. And in the process the FF wrote a definition that has gaping loopholes. That’s why defenders of the Right keep bringing that definition up; it’s such a narrow definition they can use it to handwave away just about anything. It’s just another way they avoid having to actually defend their actions. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/25 "2011-07-30T23:41:30Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > The plan is to either stop any solution in the senate or veto it. Then when the worst happens, blame the Republicans. It has worked before. If there is a plan that gets thru both Houses by Monday, Obama is not going to veto it. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/26 "2011-07-30T23:41:48Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > What the Tea Party is doing, regardless of how bad it is, isn’t treason. The founders of our country were afraid of Treason prosecutions and the abusive British courts who construed treason every which way. I see no reason why we shouldn’t call them treasonous. They understand the word differently than the sane, so according to their definition, they are treasonous. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/27 "2011-07-30T23:44:35Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Here we go again; the standard right wing attempt to pretend there’s no difference between the two sides. It’s easier than trying to defend something as worthless as the Republicans I suppose. In my hypothetical, there is no difference. Both result in “default” for purely political purposes. Too freakin’t bad if Obama doesn’t want to have another debate on this topic before the next election. And too freakin’ bad if the Tea Partiers can’t get their constitutional amendment for a balanced budget. Neither of those things is worth risking economic calamity. > [@Ludovic](#): > > I see no reason why we shouldn’t call them treasonous. They understand the word differently than the sane, so according to their definition, they are treasonous. No reason, that is, if you don’t mind sounding as stupid as they do. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/28 "2011-07-31T00:03:53Z")
**John Mace** , a hypothetical, if you don’t mind. You are President of the United States. Tomorrow, 40 Senators of the opposing party tell you that they will block the funding necessary to protect the nation’s nuclear weapons unless you both convince your party to pass, and you sign, a bill that puts the effective tax rate at 80% on those making below $35,000 in order to pay for a subsidy for the building of polo grounds. Is that just politics as usual, or something more pernicious? Does it matter if they sincerely believe that it is good policy to tax the poor to pay for polo? Who properly bears the responsibility if the Senators end up filibustering the weapons funding bill? Just want to see if we’re all on the same basic page. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/29 "2011-07-31T00:05:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > In my hypothetical, there is no difference. We aren’t talking about a “hypothetical”. We are talking about the real world, where one side is utterly inflexible, amoral and irrational and the other side isn’t. They aren’t the same. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/30 "2011-07-31T00:27:32Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > If people vote anti-tea party in 2012 they will vote pro-tea party (or something like it) in 2014 and the beat will go on. Hey, you just discovered the trick to the 2-party system. Good cop/bad cop. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/31 "2011-07-31T00:43:10Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > **John Mace** , a hypothetical, if you don’t mind. > > You are President of the United States. Tomorrow, 40 Senators of the opposing party tell you that they will block the funding necessary to protect the nation’s nuclear weapons unless you both convince your party to pass, and you sign, a bill that puts the effective tax rate at 80% on those making below $35,000 in order to pay for a subsidy for the building of polo grounds. > > Is that just politics as usual, or something more pernicious? Does it matter if they sincerely believe that it is good policy to tax the poor to pay for polo? Who properly bears the responsibility if the Senators end up filibustering the weapons funding bill? > > Just want to see if we’re all on the same basic page. I don’t see how that is analogous to the debt limit situation. The Republicans want a two step process so they can do some political grandstanding before the next election. While that may be shameless, it’s hardly comparable to enacting a punishing tax rate on poor people to subsidize the recreation of the rich. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/32 "2011-07-31T00:44:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We aren’t talking about a “hypothetical”. Yes, we are. It’s a standard debate procedure. If you don’t like them, or find them difficult to comprehend, then perhaps you should spend more time in the non-debating forums. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/33 "2011-07-31T00:48:38Z")
Every time I think I’ve seen it all I read something like this. Treason? Are you mad? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/34 "2011-07-31T00:51:02Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Every time I think I’ve seen it all I read something like this. Treason? Are you mad? It appears the OP simply wanted to rant since he hasn’t returned to defend his thesis. ---
**Author:** ![SherwoodAnderson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@SherwoodAnderson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SherwoodAnderson)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/35 "2011-07-31T00:53:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s what we in the business call a “bad analogy”. A better analogy would be the SWAT team deliberately shooting the hostages so they could end the hostage situation. No, the first analogy was better, although not perfect. The bill Obama is - we assume, for the sake of argument - vetoing is analogous to the “ransom”. When the bill arrives at his desk he has two options - to sign it or to veto it. Those are the _only two options_ available to him. There’s no hostage situation where the SWAT team gets to choose between handing over the ransom or shooting the hostage. There’s no analogy there. But here’s a better analogy: The situation at hand is in fact more similar to a ticking bomb scenario. The timer was set by the Republican party - not by the Teaparty congressmen - but the republican leadership. They choose to - for the first time in the nations history - use the debt ceiling and the threat of default as leverage. Here’s where the analogy gets a tad bit clumsy in order to stay accurate: The timer mechanism is constructed to work in such a way that when a certain amount of money is wired to a certain account, the bomb is defused. The president is faced with the choice of forking over the ransom or see the bomb go off. And the ransom as per today is that Congress has to pass a new amendment to the US constitution or the debt limit will not be raised. That was a demand from 24 representatives (out of 435!) in the House who the republican leadership chose to accomodate rather than deal with house democrats instead. That’s insane. That’s completely unacceptable and frankly takes a big huge dump on how representative democracy is supposed to work. If you don’t instinctively feel that that is wrong, I can only ask you to consider the magnitude of what’s really happening one more time. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/36 "2011-07-31T00:53:58Z")
I’ll try to keep this post within the bounds of GD. Calling people who oppose one politically “traitors” is a action of both ignorance and maliciousness. I don’t care if it comes from the right or the left; it’s wrong. Aaron Burr was a traitor, Ezra Pound was a traitor, Aldrich Ames was a traitor. Those who fight for what they believe is best for the country are not traitors. They may be wrong, misguided, and stupid, but they are not traitors. It’s despicable to call one’s political opponents traitors simply because they disagree on what is best for the country. People who do so should be ashamed of themselves. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/37 "2011-07-31T01:04:07Z")
> [@SherwoodAnderson](#): > > No, the first analogy was better, although not perfect. > > The bill Obama is - we assume, for the sake of argument - vetoing is analogous to the “ransom”. When the bill arrives at his desk he has two options - to sign it or to veto it. Those are the _only two options_ available to him. There’s no hostage situation where the SWAT team gets to choose between handing over the ransom or shooting the hostage. There’s no analogy there. Yes, there is. The SWAT team can just shoot the hostages and end the situation. It’s a reckless, stupid, harmful thing to do. Just like Obama vetoing a bill because he doesn’t want to debate the topic again in 6 months-- reckless, stupid and harmful. ---
**Author:** ![SherwoodAnderson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@SherwoodAnderson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SherwoodAnderson)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/38 "2011-07-31T01:06:13Z")
@Frank Agree on principle, but speaking for me I just dont give much of a sh-t in this particular situation. The Tea-partiers are way out of line and have been for quite some time. They’re about to do serious damage to the economy - the world economy even - or else pervert the political process. They deserve to be - need to be - named and shamed. I just dont give a rats as if every invective they get thrown their way is perfectly fair or not. I know for sure most of them wouldnt even ask themselves the question if the shoe was on the other foot (as it usually is). ---
**Author:** ![SherwoodAnderson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@SherwoodAnderson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SherwoodAnderson)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/39 "2011-07-31T01:08:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yes, there is. The SWAT team can just shoot the hostages and end the situation. It’s a reckless, stupid, harmful thing to do. Just like Obama vetoing a bill because he doesn’t want to debate the topic again in 6 months-- reckless, stupid and harmful. No thats just incorrect. Obama’s got two options. The SWAT team’s got endless options. The SWAT team can opt to do nothing unless the hostage takers are about to pull the trigger. Obama can’t, or rather that’s the choice you want to call him “shooting the hostages”. There is no analogy. Stop digging. ETA: Perhaps I was being unclear in my first post. What I meant to say was “There’s no hostage situation where the SWAT team **only** gets to choose between handing over the ransom or shooting the hostage.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861/40 "2011-07-31T01:15:22Z")
I am so tempted to just send this to the BBQ Pit, except that I think Hari Seldon wanted an actual discussion and not a rant. That said, there is no way that the actions of anyone involved in this debacle is “treasonous.” Even those who want to radically change the government are not behaving in a way to physically overthrow it. (I am also a bit amused, (sadly not surprised, but amused), that several posters have equated the Republicans with the Tea Party. Have none of you noticed the large number of pundits speculating that Boehner is doomed because he cannot control the radical fringe of his own party? There are factions within factions among both of the parties and no one has a hegemony to compel their desires.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tea-party-treason/590861.md?page=3)