be clear about entry level pool versus company guy with power proactively recruiting a candidate.
you can try to play hardball as the former, but you have a high probability of getting vetoed by someone in the hiring process.
if you have the luxury of not needing the position or have several active offers, then by all means go for the gold. but there are enough people like me out there that think newbies need to prove their worth before getting compensated beyond what’s standard.
I’m going with the “shut up and put up” strategy, but I’ve gotta ask…
dangerosa, the obvious question would be: how could he have gotten the 48K offer out of you?
An entry level guy, with no schooling other than the training for his degree, and no previous real job experience probably wouldn’t have. Had he convinced me I really wanted him, and a entry level guy might have - since I was hiring consultants someone with decent tech skills but spectacular charisma could have done it, particularly with some sort of track record - even volunteer work, that proved I had someone with a work ethic. Then start the negotiations by saying "I’ve heard MSCEs make as much as $80k, but that would obviously be for someone with much more experience than I have, and possibly additional technologies like Unix, Novell or Cisco. I’d be hoping to make $50k. I’d have said that it isn’t happening here, but I’d be willing to pay him $45. Had they said they had another offer on the table, but really liked our company, I’d go to $48.
In general, if I have to offer more than 10% less than what the candidate is asking for, I’m figuring they aren’t going to be happy. And if they aren’t happy, there really isn’t a point to bother hiring them. I’ve seen HR and hiring managers use that 10%, countering with a number that is 10% below what you ask for.
What is implied here, and stated above, is that you are in a much better negotiating position if you:
a) already have a job that pays close to your required salary. Then you can do the whole “well, I already make $xx,xxx and I’d need to get some sort of increase to justify moving as I’m really not unhappy there, but just keeping my options open.”
b) already have another offer, or at least another firm on the line. Then you can do the “I’m interviewing with another firm and I have an offer there for $xx,xxx. I’d prefer to work for you, but I really can’t turn down an extra $x,xxx.”
But both of these means that you are playing the “call my bluff” game if you really want the job. Its possible there will be no counter and then you either take what you get (if the offer is still on the table - sometimes it isn’t once you’ve played the “I’m a mercenary” card), or walk.
Yeesh. Thank you for the information. As I’ve decided that I really do want this job (my other offers aren’t exactly, well, intellectually challenging) I’ll just be as charmistic as possible, convince them my training will be minimal and I plan on netting a profit for the company many times whatever they pay me, and then take whatever they give me as long as I don’t have to live in a run-down 300 square foot place with 10 other roommates. Thank you dangerosa. You have no idea how much I appreciate the ass-kicking.
Makes sense. 
Do you only feel this way towards people who made grossly unrealistic demands? Would you still recommend people who’re forced to throw out a number pick one on the high end of what’s realistic?
Researching what a proper salary is can be tough in the tech world; not everyone’s experience neatly maps into “full-time Java developer for the last 5 years” type descriptions. At least at my workplace–is it very different in the rest of the world?
This too makes sense.
My experience (BS in EECS, then contracting with a company I’d interned with and then negotiating a full-time position) was quite a bit difference then a cold hit off monster.com…
Doh! I missed the figures you (Dangerousa) gave in a subsequent post. So nix the two questions in the second paragraph of my last post. 
What I have to add has already been said, but what the hell…
Our entry level positions are already assigned a grade before the position is even posted, so there’s just not a lot of flexibility in what we can offer. Where the offer falls within a grade depends on where the candidate went to school (and, yes, we can be snobby and give better offers to people from better rated schools) and whether they have any additional qualifications (for example, a series 7 license). The only negotiations that ever happen do so when the candidate already has an offer/job or has an extreme relocation (say, from Alaska) in which case we may up the offer or give a relocation/signing bonus package.
If one of those situations apply, you may have some leverage. Once we’ve decided on a candidate, we’re pretty much committed. The last thing we want to do is go back and do more damned interviews. Even if there were two very close candidates, once we decide on one the other just doesn’t seem as good anymore. Please bear in mind that we can only do so much. We have to stay within the grade. So we can move from a $40k offer to a $43k offer but not from $40k to $50k.
You won’t get much asking to have option bonuses transferred into higher salary. At my company, option bonuses come out of a different budget than that for regular salary. Same with health care and other benefits. Our department has a salary budget that we can control. The other stuff comes from another budget, and we don’t control what you get there. And, yes, it looks bad to ask.
That said, I work for an established company with a very formalized pay structure. Smaller or more start up companies may be a bit more flexible.
It sounds like this is close to an entry level job, so getting the job and doing well is probably more important than the first salary. Work hard, get the experience, then you’ll be in a great position to ask for the killer raise or find someone else who will appreciate your abilities.
One thing that hasn’t been stressed enough: You shouldn’t be the one to pick a salary. The company will try to trick you into this, so you have to be wary. If you were to go first, you can either go high and risk seeming too expensive or just greedy and not get the job, or you can go lower, and risk not getting the salary you deserve. It’s always better to make them go first. Practice these phrases for when they ask you what salary you want:
“I’m not comfortable discussing salary unless a job offer is on the table.”
“I’m looking to be paid a fair wage considering my experience and skills.”
“Well, that depends, can you tell me more about the responsibilities involved in the job?”
When they name a figure, repeat the number, then look down and count to ten. It shows that a) you heard them, and b) you’re thinking about whether the offer is good enough. Generally, they don’t start with their top offer, so you can ask for a little more; “Could you go to $xx,xxx?” If you’re only asking for a few thousand more, often the answer will just be yes. Congratulations, you just got thousands of dollars just for asking!
It’s also okay to say “Well, let me think about that, and in the meantime can we go over the benefits package?” Things worth asking about are tuition reimbursement programs, time off for training/continuing education, etc. It’s pretty much always okay to ask about benefits that make you a better employee. If the benefits are meager, you have an excuse for asking for more salary, though you can’t say “These benefits suck, I want more dough.”
Awesome advice Sengkelat. I know that companies will only offer the very minimum they think you’ll take and all I really wanted to know was how to push that up a lil’ bit (maybe, but it’s a gamble) and if there were any edges I could use to my benefit (NO).
Mainly I’m worried that they’ll offer something very ridiculous, e.g., significantly below average entry-level salary, because they think they can get away with it (I live in an area that has -very- low cost of living… as in $350 can rent you a 2-bedroom house in a middle class area). But, what can you do except to work in somehow that you’ve done a lot of research on rental prices, cost of living, salary averages, taxes, etc.?
I’d say more, but then I’m not dumb enough to reveal this company or to unintentionally appear as anything less than someone who would LOVE to work there for quite a bit of time, and just wants to naturally maximize her benefits.
If they come in with something really ridiculous, then ask them to justify it. You can say something like, I understand the going rate is $XX to $YY for this position. I have this training, a college degree and XX.
Since you know your friends salary, it should be hard to get into the ball park of what they will pay, vs. what you want.
In my experience companies don’t offer the least they can pay. If they want you, they don’t want you to feel underpaid. The hiring manager wants to be able to look across from you during your yearly review/increase cycle and look you in the eye. And he wants to be doing it two, three maybe five years from now. Underpaying you doesn’t accomplish that.
And do keep in mind that salarys tend to be indexed for area. A job that pays $80k a year in the Valley or NYC isn’t going to pay that in Des Moines. So don’t look at national salary figures if you live in a low cost of living area. On the other hand, starting by knowing what you’ll need to cover rent and food and everything else is a good idea.
The hiring manager wants to be able to look across from you during your yearly review/increase cycle and look you in the eye. And he wants to be doing it two, three maybe five years from now. Underpaying you doesn’t accomplish that.
Dangerosa, excellent point. I should quit worrying about all that. I’ve also done my research on the cost of living in this exact city and all that–cost of living is only a tier lower than the Valley/NYC.
IMHO, my expectations aren’t unrealistic but we’ll see what they have to offer. Basically, I’m well-prepared, very ambitious and extremely eager to put in the 60±80+ hours required for this job, and because of this I don’t want to get paid such that I’d be forced to live outside of the city and commute an additional 1-2 hours per day… my range is based on such. But, oh well, I’ve got to stop fretting and wait for the actual offer.
In any case, I’m leaving tomorrow for the day-long gauntlet on Wednesday. Wish me luck and feel free to offer me any interviewing tips (if you want, of course).
Well, if you really want advice…
A lot of questions, especially from HR, are designed to rule you out. All such questions should be turned into opportunities for you to tell them how well you can fit the requirements of the job.
As in:
"Does the cochlear implant ever interfere with, say, your ability to talk on the phone? "
“No, people usually forget it is there pretty quickly, since it works so well for me. For instance, there was one customer who expressed some concern about it, so I made it a point to work on communications with that customer, and it really worked out well - no problems at all, and he quickly found it was never an issue.”
“Are you willing to take a pay cut?”
“I am really looking for a position where I can commit long-term. For that to happen, we both have to be happy. I am sure that, if we both decide this position is a good fit - and everything I have seen so far suggests that it well could be - we can agree on a salary that will allow us both to concentrate on hitting our deadlines and making sure the work gets done, and well done too.”
And so forth.
The other thing is, send a thank you note to everyone you interviewed with. Thank them for their time, and repeat that you want the job. In writing, not e-mail.
Good luck.
Regards,
Shodan
Any links to salary negotiation tutorials that have good advice?
There are plenty of books the business section of any bookstore. Vault (www.vault.com) also has a great deal of info about certain companies and industries.
Should I ever hint that I know the salaries of people there?
No. You can however use that knowledge in your negotiation as a point of reference.
Would hinting at special needs make me appear inferior? e.g., I require cochlear implant insurance that costs $5000 for 2 years, amd so forth.
Why would you reveal such information? It’s none of their business unless it’s applicable to the job.
If I get offered, say, stock options that don’t vest for years, would I appear to be “disloyal” if I try to convince them to forego that in exchange for a bit more salary?
No. First of all, this discussion won’t come up until after an offer is made. Second, there’s no reason you can’t discuss any aspect of the compensation structure.
"Does the cochlear implant ever interfere with, say, your ability to talk on the phone? "
And now you are in court
“Are you willing to take a pay cut?”
“Not being on crack…I’m going to go ahead and say ‘no’”. (Don’t be afraid to walk away. There is something we in the negotiation business call a BATNA - Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement. Basically it means decide what is the minimum you are willing to accept and don’t be afraid to walk away if the terms are unacceptible.
and let me add:
“what is your expected salary range”
Well, it would be in the range of more than I’m making now to infinity."
Well, it’s show time. Got the offer yesterday–salary negotiations will be this afternoon. Thanks for the advice all!
They gave me a salary offer well above my range, making negotiation moot. Thanks all!
Congrats. Its always nice when it works out that way.
You got an offer and a good one! Woo hoo! Congratulations!
Yay! Congrats.