# Teacher Fired For Absent-Mindedly Bringing a Gun To School. Too Much?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [March 5, 2003, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219 "2003-03-05T11:45:33Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [March 5, 2003, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219/21 "2003-03-05T17:26:44Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by catsix \*
> \*\*Not meaning to hijack this thread, but I would like to ask:
>
> What about someone like me? I am currently an instructor at a technical college. I have a license to carry a concealed firearm (no license is required here to _own_ one, only to carry concealed) and happen to know that some of the students here are the violent type. Some of them have been to jail for violent offenses, including one who set his girlfriend on fire, and some are on a sort of ‘work release’.
>
> Hypothetically, if I carried my pistol, holstered and concealed, while at work, do you think I should be fired for having a pistol on ‘school property’? \*\*
Are there rules against bringing your gun to school? Then yes, you should be fired. What is the “violent type” by the way? If they have engaged in violence at school, they should be disciplined or expelled.
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [March 5, 2003, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219/22 "2003-03-05T17:43:57Z")
If it had just been one error, I’d say let him off with a reprimand and set him back a year or two on raise/promotion/tenure.
But he not only brought a loaded gun to school in a ‘backpack’ (I assume they mean ‘knapsack’), but that means:
1. he hadn’t unloaded the gun when leaving the range where he was shooting target practice;
2. he’d carried the loaded gun home, apparently loose, in a knapsack;
3. he didn’t put the gun away in a secure location when he got it home;
4. he didn’t put it in any non-secure place (such as a drawer in a bedside table) where he’d at least know where it was; and
5. in the days between taking the gun home and inadvertently bringing it to school, he never once verified that he knew where it was.
That’s a pretty long list of things he should have done but didn’t, or shouldn’t have done but did. And if he’d done any of those things correctly, he wouldn’t have brought a loaded gun onto school property. It took a great deal of carelessness just to set up that possibility. And that’s why I’d recommend firing him. He shouldn’t have been one careless action away from unknowingly bringing that gun to school with him to begin with.
I’m the original absent-minded (ex-)professor, which is one reason why I probably shouldn’t own a gun of any sort, but I’m a hell of a lot more careful than that with my _circular saw_, which (aside from cars and the lawn mower) is the only potentially dangerous object I own. I unplug it if I set it down for more than a few seconds, and I can always tell you exactly where it is. And I wouldn’t dream of buying a gun unless I was ready to be equally diligent with it.
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### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [March 5, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219/23 "2003-03-05T18:22:50Z")
If he’s carrying it in his backpack, he must have a concealed carry permit.
Therefore, he should also be aware that carrying a weapon on school property is illegal. Someone who carries a concealed weapon should always be aware of where it can be carried.
If he got fired, I simply can’t bring myself to feel bad for him. He did it to himself when he violated the trust his state put in him when they issued him a concealed carry permit.
In fact, if I were the state, I’d withdraw his permit immediately as he has proven himself untrustworthy to have one. It sounds Draconian, yes, but one of the things that I have learned is that you take on a greater level of responsibility when you have a license to carry, and if you’re not prepared to assume that responsibility you shouldn’t have that right.
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### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [March 5, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219/24 "2003-03-05T18:27:07Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by MGibson \*
>
> * * *
>
> Making an error with a firearm does not make one an idiot nor does it make one an irresponsible gun owner. If I have 11 years of safe firearm use and then one day experience an accidental discharge (that hurts nobody) am I suddenly not to be trusted?\*\*
Yes. Concealed carry, like driving, is a privilege, not a right. You have the right to own a weapon, yes, but when the weapon is on your person you are not allowed to make any mistakes. That’s the responsibility that comes with the right.
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### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [March 5, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219/25 "2003-03-05T18:53:38Z")
> [@](#):
>
> MGibson quote:
> Making an error with a firearm does not make one an idiot nor does it make one an irresponsible gun owner. If I have 11 years of safe firearm use and then one day experience an accidental discharge (that hurts nobody) am I suddenly not to be trusted?
Hey that’s a shame that this guy lost his job but that’s life. He screwed up and now he has to take the consequences.
What if some kid found his pistol and accidently discharged it into a fellow students forehead? No one will care about the 11 years of safe gun handling that preceded.
> [@](#):
>
> MGibson quote:
> I really don’t think the mistake was that big of a deal. Reprimand him, sure. It is only the hysteria surrounded our fear of guns that fuels so much outrage.
Guns should be feared and/or respected just like a car, a table saw, or any other dangerous piece of machinery. What fuels the outrage is when people who own them act irresponsibly.
Absent mindedly leaving a gun around the office like it was your morning danish definitely qualifies.
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### Author:  [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)
#### Post date: [March 5, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219/26 "2003-03-05T19:01:47Z")
I don’t know about firing, but a suspension is definitely in order. And maybe a caning by the other teachers in the main hallway.
It’s just stupid to not realize there’s a gun in your backpack, especially if you put it there.
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### Author:  [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)
#### Post date: [March 5, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219/27 "2003-03-05T19:19:36Z")
He could have just as easily left the gun unattended in the classroom. What if he had needed those books in his class, and brought the backpack in there? I think he’s lucky that getting fired is the worst thing that happened.
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### Author:  [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)
#### Post date: [March 5, 2003, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219/28 "2003-03-05T19:22:50Z")
I’d like to know why other teachers were looking into someone else’s bag? Doesn’t this get to anyone else?
That said though how do you forget a loaded handgun in a backpack, then how do you put books into said pack and not notice it? I still think somethings up then if he did put books into the pack and didn’t see it how did someone else happen to see it without really going through the pack?
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### Author:  [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)
#### Post date: [March 5, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219/29 "2003-03-05T19:41:59Z")
I think the gun free school zones law is somewhat naive though well intentioned but I think the teacher was grossly neglegent and I would not protest his firing.
I make it a point to never use luggage or knapsacks for guns. I have special cases and a range bag for guns and amminution. This reduces the chances of me doing something stupid like inadvertantly carrying a gun or ammunition to a prohibited place. Still when I fly I shake out all my luggage before packing just in case something found its way in there.
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### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [March 5, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219/30 "2003-03-05T19:46:44Z")
I noticed that too, **Edward**.
While it was an invasion of privacy, that invasion is mitigated by the fact that he brought a loaded weapon to school in violation of the laws of Pennsylvania.
As with any story, I think parts were left out. Perhaps the gun was printing through the bag, or perhaps they could actually see it inside the bag.
The big question is this: Does your right to privacy trump the school district’s right to search people at will? Given metal detectors and random locker searches, I would tend to say no. Historically, schools have been exempted from having to get warrants to search students, and I suspect that this is the rationale they used to search the teacher’s bag.
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### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [March 5, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219/31 "2003-03-05T20:25:19Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \*
> \*\*Yes. Concealed carry, like driving, is a privilege, not a right. You have the right to own a weapon, yes, but when the weapon is on your person you are not allowed to make any mistakes. That’s the responsibility that comes with the right. \*\*
I understand that. However even when someone is at fault for an accident they aren’t necessarily branded as an irresponsible driver.
Marc
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### Author:  [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)
#### Post date: [March 5, 2003, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219/32 "2003-03-05T21:00:48Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I’d like to know why other teachers were looking into someone else’s bag? Doesn’t this get to anyone else?
I was wondering about that, too, and of course can’t prove my hypothesis, but my guess is that they were looking for some ID so that they could return it to its owner. I’ve found lots of stranded things, and if I can find some identification on it, I’ll make sure it gets back to whom it belongs. Wallets, purses, dayplanners, knapsacks… you name it, people will occasionally leave them behind on accident. I’ve always assumed that they’d want them back.
My take on this is that the teacher did deserve to lose his job over this. It’s mere happenstance that no one got hurt because of his carelessness, and as **RTFirefly** helpfully listed, he made several key mistakes before bringing the gun in. With the permit to carry a gun comes the responsibility to handle it correctly and safely, and he didn’t do that. With his teaching position came a responsibility to provide a safe environment for his charges and colleagues, and he didn’t do that, either. Much more than a little mistake, to me.
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### Author:  [@Hermann\_Cheruscan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermann_Cheruscan)
#### Post date: [March 6, 2003, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219/33 "2003-03-06T01:30:15Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Speaking from Britain, of course he should be fired. The last time an adult brought a gun to a school here was in a town called Dunblane.
How do you know? Were you able to look inside every package, backpack and briefcase carried on a school ground by an adult since Dunblane?
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### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [March 6, 2003, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219/34 "2003-03-06T01:44:48Z")
Out of idle curiosity, I ask, “Who says he absent-mindedly brought it to school?”
If the answer is, “Why, he, of course.” I then laugh loud and long.
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### Author:  [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)
#### Post date: [March 6, 2003, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219/35 "2003-03-06T02:03:55Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Are there rules against bringing your gun to school?
There is no mention whatsoever of firearms in the faculty handbook.
> [@](#):
>
> Then yes, you should be fired.
I’d rather be fired than attacked.
> [@](#):
>
> What is the “violent type” by the way?
The type who set his girlfriend on fire because she didn’t do his laundry at the proper time.
> [@](#):
>
> If they have engaged in violence at school, they should be disciplined or expelled.
It has been made clear on more than one occasion that this won’t happen, and that there is nothing we can do about the ones who come in from the jail because denying them an education is ‘discriminatory’.
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### Author:  [@Persephone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Persephone)
#### Post date: [March 6, 2003, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219/36 "2003-03-06T03:04:13Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by MGibson \*
> \*\*I understand that. However even when someone is at fault for an accident they aren’t necessarily branded as an irresponsible driver.
>
> Marc \*\*
There’s a difference here. Cars are for driving. While some people are killed by cars, and while driving cars, the purpose of a car is not to cause harm.
Guns are a different story. The sole purpose of a gun is to be used by a person to cause harm to something, be it a target, an animal, or another human.
I used to be anti-gun. Then I met several responsible gun owners, and changed my stance to anti-idiots-with-weaponry. This teacher is an idiot. He’s a lucky idiot, though, in that no one started fooling around with his gun, and no one was hurt or killed.
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [March 6, 2003, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219/37 "2003-03-06T05:59:29Z")
I’m strongly pro-gun rights, and I’d have fired this clown. As other’s said, this wasn’t just one mistake. The list of things this guy did wrong is long.
And I don’t buy the, “Oh, I forgot the gun was in my backpack” argument. Who forgets that they have a loaded gun in a backpack? And in any event, he would have said something like that regardless of why it was really there. What’s he going to say? “I brought the gun because I don’t trust the murderous little bastards I have to teach, and I want to be ready to shoot one of them”?
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### Author:  [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)
#### Post date: [March 6, 2003, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219/38 "2003-03-06T06:35:23Z")
Just for the record, California (where I live) has a “loaded gun” law which prohibits people from carrying loaded firearms unless they have a permit to carry loaded. A permit to carry concealed in California is also a permit to carry loaded. I don’t know if Pennsylvania (where the teacher made the blunder) has a loaded gun law or not.
In any case, if you’re **going** to carry concealed, you sure as heck should **not** carry that handgun loose in your knapsack. You should carry it in a concealed holster **on your person,** where you can feel its presence and reach for it quickly. The whole **point** of concealed carry is to have a gun available for immediate self defense (without having to show the world “look everybody, I have a gun” in the mean time). If you’re not going to go to that trouble, then you should **unload** your handgun and carry it in a **locked case**. Anything else, anything between these two extremes, is just plain irresponsible.
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### Author:  [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)
#### Post date: [March 6, 2003, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219/39 "2003-03-06T06:39:47Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by MGibson \*
> **However even when someone is at fault for an accident they aren’t necessarily branded as an irresponsible driver.**
They are if they were engaging in reckless driving when the accident occurred.
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### Author:  [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)
#### Post date: [March 6, 2003, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-fired-for-absent-mindedly-bringing-a-gun-to-school-too-much/159219/40 "2003-03-06T13:19:47Z")
> [@](#):
>
> **tracer** said:
> I don’t know if Pennsylvania (where the teacher made the blunder) has a loaded gun law or not.
We do not. A license to carry concealed firearms only has relevance to carrying concealed, not whether or not the gun can be loaded. Under Pennsylvania state law, open carry is legal without a license. Open carry refers to a properly holstered gun that is not in any way concealed by any clothing; it must be completely in plain sight on the person who is carrying it.
Some local jurisdictions have ordinances against open carry, but the state does not.
You’re right that if you’re not going to keep the gun on your person it should be unloaded and cased for transport.
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