# Teacher Tells Class: Vote Obama **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2008, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732 "2008-11-07T22:29:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732/121 "2008-11-10T01:32:17Z")
“Senseless” depends entirely on your point of view. What if, in fact, Bush and Cheney got us into the Iraq war in order to raise the price of oil and line the pockets of their oil-industry buddies. Well, that certainly isn’t “senseless”. It makes a whole lot of sense to them if that actually happened. Now, few of us would agree that that’s a good reason to go to war, but that’s an entirely different matter. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732/122 "2008-11-10T01:43:44Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > The word doesn’t have two different meanings. > > The guardian doesn’t have to send the child to school. Many guardians don’t. Most choose to send their kids to school, but not all. > > And either way, the kids have no options. Yes, it’s true that homeschooling (or private schooling) are options. However, the involuntary aspect of presence in public school is the precise rationale for the Supreme Court’s various rulings concerning mandatory recitation of the Pledge (not permitted), school-sponsored prayer (not permitted) and a host of other things. So that part is well-settled from a legal point of view. Equally, parents forcing their minor children to attend church is a well-settled issue. (It’s permitted). So to the extent you have a personal opinion about how these things are identical, it finds no support in the law. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732/123 "2008-11-10T01:44:14Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Review the above: > You responded this way despite the fact that his dependent clause (“Parse your words carefully enough…”) made his statement a conditional one. He said in effect the opposite of how you parsed it, which effectively proved his point. But this isn’t true. Read my statement you quoted again. I said that if luci thinks I must mean X, then he’s wrong. I fully understood what he was saying, and you are doing nothing but being an asshole in this thread and adding nothing to the discussion. > [@](#): > > I suppose I shouldn’t have called you an idiot, but I’m just sick and tired of being sick and tired about dealing with stupid people. The presidential race had the effect of gathering so many of them together into tight quarters — such as at Sarah Palin rallies. Again, get over yourself. I participated in several threads with you where you gave short and snippy responses (like “You have it backwards.”) and then accused me of being factually incorrect and disingenuous while doing the exact same thing yourself and not responding when I called you on it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732/124 "2008-11-10T02:46:00Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > To me, this is not a senseless war, and therefore it is not a factually or objectively senseless war. I have no real desire to talk about the Iraq war specifically, this argument is general is not convincing. We can each be wrong about things without changing what facts exist. You having an opinion doesn’t make the opinion justified or relevant. I do think that “senseless” is a statement of opinion, though, not a statement of fact. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732/125 "2008-11-10T02:47:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So to the extent you have a personal opinion about how these things are identical, it finds no support in the law. To the extent that I am talking about the law (which is not at all), uh, thanks for the info. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732/126 "2008-11-10T04:40:43Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I have no real desire to talk about the Iraq war specifically, this argument is general is not convincing. We can each be wrong about things without changing what facts exist. You having an opinion doesn’t make the opinion justified or relevant. I agree; it just seemed to me that some people were try to imply or argue that an opinion that everyone shares = a fact. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732/127 "2008-11-10T05:36:01Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > To the extent that I am talking about the law (which is not at all), uh, thanks for the info. Well, in my view, you should be – because you’re trying to equate two completely different kinds of “involuntary,” and the law applies to one and not the other. This is the difference between the two, and it is fatal to your assertion that they’re the same. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732/128 "2008-11-10T06:01:31Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I agree; it just seemed to me that some people were try to imply or argue that an opinion that everyone shares = a fact. Fact: The reason put forward for invading was that Iraq possessed WMD capability and constituted a clear and present danger to the US. Fact: Iraq did not in fact posses WMD capability and the administration knew it. Factual Conclusion: The war is a senseless waste of lives and resources. Perhaps Lib can drop in to put the above in the form of a syllogism. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732/129 "2008-11-10T06:16:37Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Fact: The reason put forward for invading was that Iraq possessed WMD capability and constituted a clear and present danger to the US. > > Fact: Iraq did not in fact posses WMD capability and the administration knew it. > > Factual Conclusion: The war is a senseless waste of lives and resources. Iraq possessed WMD capability. They demonstrated that with their use of chemical weapons. They just didn’t have WMDs. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732/130 "2008-11-10T06:23:36Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Fact: The reason put forward for invading was that Iraq possessed WMD capability and constituted a clear and present danger to the US. > > Fact: Iraq did not in fact posses WMD capability and the administration knew it. > > Factual Conclusion: The war is a senseless waste of lives and resources. > > Perhaps Lib can drop in to put the above in the form of a syllogism. Another disingenuous post. The reasons for invading were legion. I listed 5 of them upthread that weren’t “Iraq possessed WMD.” And you’re wrong, anyway. They did possess WMD capabilities; they had used them before. They just didn’t have any that we know of at the time of invasion. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732/131 "2008-11-10T06:27:34Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Iraq possessed WMD capability. They demonstrated that with their use of chemical weapons. They just didn’t have WMDs. Yet we never found any stockpiles or factories or even the mobile labs Colin Powel lied to the UN about. None of the missiles launched at Israel contained chemical weapons. None of our troops (of which I was one during the first Gulf War) suffered chemical injuries. No chemical weapons have been found and none were ever used. No nucular material was found. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada. North Korea has all that stuff. Iran probably has most of it. Pakistan has it. We were attacked by terrorists based in Afghanistan funded mostly by Saudis and we invaded Iraq. Senseless. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732/132 "2008-11-10T06:34:21Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] …They just didn’t have any that we know of at the time of invasion. [/QUOTE] Pat Garrett: Billy, that was murder, and I must arrest you. Billy the Kid: Why, no, Pat, it was self defense. Pat Garrett: It was murder, the man was unarmed, he didn’t have a gun. Billy the Kid: Well, no, but he knew where he could get one! ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732/133 "2008-11-10T06:34:23Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Another disingenuous post. The reasons for invading were legion. I listed 5 of them upthread that weren’t “Iraq possessed WMD.” > > And you’re wrong, anyway. They did possess WMD capabilities; they had used them before. They just didn’t have any that we know of at the time of invasion. None of the reasons you listed would have gotten the country on a war right now footing. None of them justifies a single American life wasted. Congress didn’t authorize military action because Saddam was mistreating his people or because it wanted to spread democracy. The go to war now was based on lies and misinformation spread by the administration because it knew it would not have the necessary political support unless it could make the American people believe that Iraq was a threat to us. Turns out it never was. At least no more than any of a handful of other countries were. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732/134 "2008-11-10T06:54:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Pat Garrett: Billy, that was murder, and I must arrest you. > Billy the Kid: Why, no, Pat, it was self defense. > Pat Garrett: It was murder, the man was unarmed, he didn’t have a gun. > Billy the Kid: Well, no, but he knew where he could get one! You really couldn’t have found a worse analogy or oversimplification of what I said, could you? But I guess you were just going for a laugh. Here you go: Haw haw haw! > [@askeptic](#): > > None of the reasons you listed would have gotten the country on a war right now footing. None of them justifies a single American life wasted. Congress didn’t authorize military action because Saddam was mistreating his people or because it wanted to spread democracy. The go to war now was based on lies and misinformation spread by the administration because it knew it would not have the necessary political support unless it could make the American people believe that Iraq was a threat to us. Turns out it never was. At least no more than any of a handful of other countries were. I guess you guys are just so used to arguing against right-wing hawks about the war that you get confused and don’t know what to say when someone wants to talk rationally about it from a non-partisan point of view. Take it to the VFW because trying to convince me we’re fighting the wrong war for the wrong reasons is preaching to the choir. All I’m saying is I find it ridiculous that you people won’t budge on claiming your opinions as facts. It’s puerile. For the last time, I don’t want to argue with you about the war. I don’t support the war and never did. I only commented because I think explicitly saying your opinions are FACTS makes you sound stupid and weakens your argument. If I was on the other side of the issue, that would be the point at which I would stop listening. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732/135 "2008-11-10T07:07:46Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > You really couldn’t have found a worse analogy or oversimplification of what I said, could you? But I guess you were just going for a laugh. Here you go: Haw haw haw!.. Not a bit of it. Your argument is every bit as vapid and morally bankrupt as my lampoon of your argument. Since you can’t argue an actual threat, you argue the threat of a threat, as if it were somehow equivalent to a clear and present danger. Which is, by the laws of common decency, the only justification for lethal force. And the mockery I offer to that argument is more respect than it deserves ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732/136 "2008-11-10T07:16:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not a bit of it. Your argument is every bit as vapid and morally bankrupt as my lampoon of your argument. Since you can’t argue an actual threat, you argue the threat of a threat, as if it were somehow equivalent to a clear and present danger. > > Which is, by the laws of common decency, the only justification for lethal force. And the mockery I offer to that argument is more respect than it deserves By gum you’re exactly right - except the opposite. I get the feeling you haven’t even read my posts in this thread. Surely you missed where #1 I’m not arguing for myself - I’m simply presenting the way that many other people can and do see things, and #2 You picked like one half of one point I made, out of like 6. You’re either being an asshole for the fun of it, or you’re not paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732/137 "2008-11-10T07:33:16Z")
It’s _always_ about the law with you, isn’t it, **Bricker**? Not everything in the world boils down to statues, you know. Or, as my dear departed father said many times throughout my youth, “It’s only illegal if you get caught”. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732/138 "2008-11-10T07:37:57Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > Or, as my dear departed father said many times throughout my youth, “It’s only illegal if you get caught”. heh, I saw a guy wearing a shirt with that written on it in a booking photo (Olberman’s show I think), you just know the guy got teased mercilessly in the holding cell… ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732/139 "2008-11-10T07:47:41Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > You’re either being an asshole for the fun of it, or you’re not paying attention. Dude, you just called Luci an asshole, in the Pit? That’s like pulling a knife on a gun slinger… ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732/140 "2008-11-10T07:57:04Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Dude, you just called Luci an asshole, in the Pit? That’s like pulling a knife on a gun slinger… Oh dear me. What ever shall I do now? Call off the dogs. CALL THEM OFF, MAN. MY GOD, HAVE YOU NO COMPASSION?!! I don’t think I’m going to be able to show my face around here for the rest of the night, NOW THAT I’VE PULLED A KNIFE ON A GUNSLINGER! (Please read as: :rolleyes:. I’m going to bed.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teacher-tells-class-vote-obama/471732.md?page=8)