# Teachers Strike. Seriously? Teachers, feel free to chime in here. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 11, 2005, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175 "2005-01-11T05:25:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/181 "2005-01-12T23:39:48Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > No, but I think having a union means that teachers who put in extra time and effort and achieve good results for their students are less likely to recognize that in the form of higher salaries versus their peers. Unions are bargaining for the mass, not the achievers who are working the extra 10 hours a week. You are familiar with the concept of collective bargaining, nu? > [@](#): > > You can think what you want. I came in with an aggressive attitude against the unthinking party line that teachers on average are underpaid and overworked. I stated it very aggressively and with condescension toward that theory, because I do believe the theory is a lie spread by those lobbying for teachers. And that’s precisely what people have told you. Shit the bed, son! Don’t you bother reading anything that’s been posted? They’ve also pointed out to you why your beliefs are wrong. But you’re just hell-bent against learning anything. > [@](#): > > Difference being, at no time have I said: > > “Your wife is a worthless and lazy fucking asshole who just wants to leech my money out of the tax system” Now, that’s hardly fair at all. What if my wife **is** a worthless and lazy fucking asshole who just wants to leech your money out of the tax system? Huh? Sparky, you claim that you have a 4 year old (o’course, you also claim that you have known teachers, which is bullshit, so. . .). If you are telling the truth, then I can only hope that you’re gonna send that wee bairn to public school. Because your life will be made a whole helluva lot more interesting. > [@](#): > > It’s up to you whether you want it to serve as a form of argument, or whether you truly can claim with a straight face that there is no difference. I’m sorry. . .what in hell are on about here? Because I’m as baffled as can be. * * * > [@Bill H.](#): > > Public school teachers are paid far too much for far too little. Y’wanna back this up? Or just leave it lying there? > [@](#): > > The fact that private school teachers are paid less and deliver a better education is proof enough. Um, no it isn’t. > [@](#): > > Teachers union is an immoral institution that needs to be disbanded. How so, precisely? “Immoral”? Really? * * * > [@LissyLou](#): > > People willingly pay ever higher amounts for their entertainment (sports, tv, movies), and then turn around and have a cow about their taxes going towards those ‘overpaid’ teachers. Not “people”. “Ignoramuses”. They’re called “ignoramuses”. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/182 "2005-01-12T23:57:49Z")
> [@](#): > > By the way Miller, why do you hate black people? This smacks of nothing but being a jerk, by way of baiting and uncalled for accusations. > [@](#): > > You are now using some very insulting and demeaning language that a lot of people have tried to get past for a lot of years to dig yourself out of a hole that has nothing to do with it. As does this. What insulting and demeaning language would that be, btw? Attempting to put others on the defensive is only a cheap way to keep from having to defend your own actions here. Your attempt to redirect really shows who’s in the hole. But back to the real matter: You made sweeping accusations of a large group of people-- saying they’re not credible, they’re lying, and they’re full of bullshit-- with language that was arrogant and condescending. In addition, you refused to listen to anyone, or be moved in your opinion of said group of people, no matter what anyone else said. You stereotyped, you assumed, you acted like an pompous ass. Replace ‘teachers’ in this thread with any other large group of people, talk as demeaning as you did here, and you would have the same labels (‘douchebag,’ ‘asshole,’ ‘fuckstick’) tossed your way. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Tikster > Look, I’m still so young and idealistic that I’m almost prepared to say that I don’t care what kind of money I make, I’d much rather see more respect for the job that we do. And judging from this thread, that’s probably not going to happen. The main picture that is painted here is that teachers are “whiners” who have chosen a “cushy” job just because we can’t really hold down a “real” job. Gee, thanks. I think most people do respect teachers. Our society just has a real bad way of showing it most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/183 "2005-01-13T00:31:25Z")
> [@Happy Lendervedder](#): > > This smacks of nothing but being a jerk, by way of baiting and uncalled for accusations. Yes, as does throwing out the race card, as Miller did. > [@Happy Lendervedder](#): > > As does this. What insulting and demeaning language would that be, btw? See above. > [@Happy Lendervedder](#): > > Attempting to put others on the defensive is only a cheap way to keep from having to defend your own actions here. I agree, and I’m not really sure why Miller did it. > [@Happy Lendervedder](#): > > But back to the real matter: You made sweeping accusations of a large group of people-- saying they’re not credible, they’re lying, and they’re full of bullshit-- with language that was arrogant and condescending. In addition, you refused to listen to anyone, or be moved in your opinion of said group of people, no matter what anyone else said. You stereotyped, you assumed, you acted like an pompous ass. You can say whether it was arrogant or condescending. I did make sweeping accusations against a large group of people on this particular issue. I do not say that everyone or every school in the grouping is subject to the accusation. I have listened to people, I have simply not been swayed by “Fuck you you arrogant asshole.” That probably should not surprise you. Some of the actual evidence provided (which was minimal, it appears that ad hominem attacks are easier to make) has been interesting, some of it pursuasive. On the whole, I found much of it from biased sources, and much of it does not say what the deliverer thought it did. > [@Happy Lendervedder](#): > > Replace ‘teachers’ in this thread with any other large group of people, talk as demeaning as you did here, and you would have the same labels (‘douchebag,’ ‘asshole,’ ‘fuckstick’) tossed your way. Any other large group like “conservatives” or “republicans”? What about “corporate CEOs”? “U.S. Department of Education”? I made a generalization about a group. It does not apply to every member of the group, but I’ll stand by it as a generalization. You are deluding yourself if you believe that the type of behavior you are describing would be deemed acceptable in similar contexts that didn’t hit your “moral indignation” wheelhouse. I would question who is pompous; to me it would be someone who attempts to shout down those who disagree with the assertion that teachers are overworked and underpaid. Of course, your not so clever game is to say that if I disagree that this is the case on average, I’m saying “Teachers are lying.” Well, what a surpise, if I disagree with a group, they are lying. It’s a brilliant rhetorical device. Let me try it: “You fucking asshole? Why would you not expect me to hate you - plenty of teachers are overpaid and underworked, and yet you say differently. You’re accusing me of lying.” > [@Happy Lendervedder](#): > > I think most people do respect teachers. Our society just has a real bad way of showing it most of the time. I respect teachers. I just don’t think on average that they are underpaid. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/184 "2005-01-13T00:47:35Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > Yes, as does throwing out the race card, as Miller did. Oh my goddess, you are truly stupid. He didn’t play a race card, he showed you how your sloppy and hamfisted attempts at an unsubstantiated generalization would look with another group substituted for teachers. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > I agree, and I’m not really sure why Miller did it. Were you not a total idiot with the reading comprehension of a third grader, you really would be sure. But you’re not sure, because you’re stupid. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > You can say whether it was arrogant or condescending. I did make sweeping accusations against a large group of people on this particular issue. I do not say that everyone or every school in the grouping is subject to the accusation. No, just the people posting in this thread. Oh, and, by the way, your bullshit ‘scientific study’ **still** wouldn’t be grounds for you to make any sort of sweeping statement. The fact that you **still** don’t get this only surves to show how much of a moron you are. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > I have listened to people, I have simply not been swayed by “Fuck you you arrogant asshole.” That probably should not surprise you. I’ve already explained this to you once. Try to follow along Spunky. Your entire premise is based on a bullshit ‘scientific study’ with a sample size of 30 individuals. As such, your generalization was bullshit, and your attitude was simply more slime. So, I disproved your methodology, then pointed out you were an asshole. Reading comp, gotta love it. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > Some of the actual evidence provided (which was minimal, it appears that ad hominem attacks are easier to make) has been interesting, some of it pursuasive. Nobody _needed_ to provide any evidence to refute your ‘scientific study’, because your ‘scientific study’ was pure grade A bullshit. We then went on to show you why you were wrong, even though you’re just a loud mouthed asshole. While showing you why you were wrong, we pointed out that you were both wrong, and a loud mouthed asshole. Reading comp Spunky, try to keep these two concepts in your head. 1. You are factually incorrect. 2. You are a stupid schmuck. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > On the whole, I found much of it from biased sources, and much of it does not say what the deliverer thought it did. Ah, it surprises me that you’d be slimy, honestly. When you can’t discuss data, call the site biased and run. That’s the ticket! And as others pointed out, the cites said exactly what they were intended to. Your abhorent reading comp isn’t the cites’ fault. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > I made a generalization about a group. It does not apply to every member of the group, You made a generalization based on a bullshit ‘scientific study’ and have given no other data. You are wrong, and an idiot. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > but I’ll stand by it as a generalization. Because you’re an idiot. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > You are deluding yourself if you believe that the type of behavior you are describing would be deemed acceptable in similar contexts that didn’t hit your “moral indignation” wheelhouse. It’s not a moral issue, it’s a factual one. Your ‘research’ was sloppy and doesn’t prove jack shit. Your rhetoric was slimy and offensive. And you’re an idiot. Savvy? > [@SlyFrog](#): > > I would question who is pompous; to me it would be someone who attempts to shout down those who disagree with the assertion that teachers are overworked and underpaid Had you a) provided cites b) conducted an actual and valid scientific study c) not come in acting like a total asshole Well then, maybe people would’ve reacted better. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > Of course, your not so clever game is to say that if I disagree that this is the case on average, I’m saying “Teachers are lying.” Well, what a surpise, if I disagree with a group, they are lying. Good gods! Do you have **any** balls??? First you accuse people of lying, then you lie about accusing people of lying. Jeeeeeeeez, stop being such a fucking whining little bitch. Others have shown you the many, many times in this thread you’ve implied or flat out stated that those who disagree with you are liars. Jeez, you’re pathatic. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > I respect teachers. I just don’t think on average that they are underpaid. Hey, moron, what **data** do you have to support this? Thought so. Now shut your fucking mouth unless you really want to dig that hole deeper. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/185 "2005-01-13T00:50:44Z")
> [@Tikster](#): > > I’m mostly a lurker here, but I can’t leave this thread without commenting. Pardon with me, I still have much restraint about swearing, so I censor myself, before it ever makes itself into this thread - even if it is in the pit :). Why would you ask for pardon for engaging in rational discourse instead of spewing invective. > [@Tikster](#): > > **SlyFrog** I just want to chime in here and say that I read your statement in exactly the same manner as **Miller**. If you won’t explain it to him, please explain it to me: Are you really saying that someone could spew whatever racist/bigoted/whatever stuff they want, as long as they include “most” as a disclaimer? That way, anyone who gets offended clearly wasn’t intended to be included? Sorry that doesn’t fly. I have explained it to Miller. It’s not a matter of not explaining, it’s a matter of not getting the answer. It’s very simple - Miller was disingenuous. If you read the quote, Miller said that by accusing most of a group of whining (or lying) about how hard they work, I was saying to every teacher that they are a liar. That is simply not the case. If I say 51% of a group (call it group X) is purple, that does not mean that if I pick one of the group randomly, they will be purple. It is demonstrably false. Likewise, saying most of a group is whining (or lying) cannot be converted to saying that everyone in that group is lying. It’s simply wrong. Of course Miller couldn’t handle that. So he changed what he wrote. Suddenly he throws out the race card, and says, “Hey, if you said most blacks are X, wouldn’t you have a right to be pissed off if you were black?” Well, first, he has injected race to try to play a game that makes a statement about teachers akin to a statement about skin color. To show the falacy, I would ask you this: if someone says, “Most pro atheletes are overpaid,” would you then respond with, “Hey, what are you saying, do you think you would have a right to say ‘Most blacks are overpaid?’” It’s apples and oranges, and its a disingenuous technique that is insulting to blacks in this case. It’s an artificial way to attempt to bar any questioning of the teacher’s viewpoint - “Oh hey, teachers are just like blacks; saying that teachers are overpaid is the same about making generalizations about blacks, which is the same as making generalizations that corporate CEOs are overpaid.” It’s ridiculous. Furthermore, he is applying the race card, as he is hoping to equate saying bad things about blacks (presumably because of the color of their skin) with saying bad things about teachers. I’m perfectly willing to admit that you might be quite pissed off if you were a teacher and you read my statement. But you cannot say that the statement says that you as an individual teacher are a liar. > [@Tikster](#): > > For the record, I am a teacher myself. I got a masters and am currently finishing my two years extra education at a high school - and all I wanna say to you people who think it’s a cushy job, is that it really isn’t. And the pay is in no way equivalent to what other people with a university degree earn. Sure, I could just get one of them jobs, but frankly, that’s not what I want to do. Heck, why drive away the people wo _want_ to teach and keep the people with bad degrees, who can’t get any other jobs than teaching (luckily it’s a low percentage in my perception)? As others have said, it’s a matter of attracting the quality teachers. What are those other jobs? Have you applied for and obtained them but turned them down? I’m sincerely not trying to insult you, you’ve tried to be reasonable. But I believe that a lot of people think that there is a plethora of really high paying jobs out there just waiting for an average bachelors or masters degree. There are not. In fact a quick look at the following site suggests that the income gain from the degrees is relatively minimal (in looking at it, bear in mind that the increase is over a lifetime: [Increase from Degrees](http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/CollegeandFamily/Savingforcollege/P59866.asp) > [@Tikster](#): > > Can you honestly say you wouldn’t want people who care deeply being the ones who caretake the education of your offspring? Of course not. I appreciate what teachers do. I respect good teachers who actually prepare and put in the effort to do the job well I have a right to say that on average, the average teacher is not underpaid. > [@Tikster](#): > > Look, I’m still so young and idealistic that I’m almost prepared to say that I don’t care what kind of money I make, I’d much rather see more _respect_ for the job that we do. And judging from this thread, that’s probably not going to happen. The main picture that is painted here is that teachers are “whiners” who have chosen a “cushy” job just because we can’t really hold down a “real” job. Gee, thanks. I don’t think a lot of teacher’s are teachers because they can’t hold down a real job. I think that a lot of teachers have a cushy job, and as any normal person would do, they like the cushy job. Why does having a cushy job mean that you can’t hold any other job? I’m sure I could do plenty of different types of work; my choice to do something that pays well (that probably overpays me) does not mean I can’t find some other work. > [@Tikster](#): > > Just my two (not too highjacking I think) cents. > > - Tikster, who apologises if her english is not too good. Nothing hijacked at all; I appreciate your thoughts and thank you for not ranting. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/186 "2005-01-13T00:55:32Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Now shut your fucking mouth unless you really want to dig that hole deeper. No thanks, unlike you, I don’t have the fascist need to tell people they shouldn’t speak when I happen to disagree with them. I think I’ll keep speaking; try to keep the enraged thoughts of stomping on me with jackboots because I’m saying something you don’t like out of your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/187 "2005-01-13T01:05:11Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > No thanks, unlike you, I don’t have the fascist need to tell people they shouldn’t speak when I happen to disagree with them. I think I’ll keep speaking; try to keep the enraged thoughts of stomping on me with jackboots because I’m saying something you don’t like out of your mind. Ladies and gentlemen, we have a Godwin! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/188 "2005-01-13T01:07:07Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > No thanks, unlike you, I don’t have the fascist need to tell people they shouldn’t speak when I happen to disagree with them. Look at my posting history idiot. And while you’re at it gain some fucking reading comprehension, you’re a fucking tool. Not only am I not a fascist in any way shape or form, but I have civil disucssions with those who disagree with me all the time. The difference, here, is that you’re a loud mouthed ignorant asshole who from the first post you made in this thread has insulted people. I responded to you in kind. Then you started whining like a little bitch. So fuck you, you fucking lying idiot wimp. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > I think I’ll keep speaking; Dig the hole deeper asshole. Dig the hole deeper. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > try to keep the enraged thoughts of stomping on me with jackboots because I’m saying something you don’t like out of your mind. No, if you were saying something I didn’t like, and had **one single fact to back it up** , I would concede that I was wrong, and I’d learn, evolve, grow, change. But, you are factually bankrupt, challenged to a large degree by standard English text, and from the word go, absolutely obnoxious. So, if I felt like stomping on you it would be because you’re an obnoxious idiot. Not because you disagree. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/189 "2005-01-13T01:13:25Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > Sorry, I don’t need to explain things that you’ve made up as a strawman because you can’t discuss what I’ve actually said. Mouth actually drops to floor. Are you freaking KIDDING US? **HappyLender** posted line after line from your OWN posts where you continually call teachers both here, and 'out there" liars and you have the unmitigated gall to label it a strawman? You’re quite a little piece of work. They had the measure of you MUCH more clearly than I did. You’re so far down in that little hole you’re digging for yourself, you might as well settle in and take a little nappy poo, because you’re going to have to wait until the firemen come to rescue you, you’ll never make it up the sides. > [@](#): > > Unless you want to show me where I said I could accurately assess how many hours every poster here, along with every teacher everywhere worked. Sweetheart, how much more clear could it have been when you discounted every teacher, and teacher’s relative here in this thread and out in the real world with phrases like “I call bullshit” “it’s not even credible” etc (as in the what FIFTEEN or so quotes of yours **Happy** repeats above, that you ARE in fact saying that you can assess how many hours every teacher poster (not every poster, since not all of us are teachers) work? > [@](#): > > Of course once again, **because I didn’t say what you want** , you need to make up your own facts to fit the situation. Because someone somewhere taught you that “People who argue that one individual does X does not mean every individual of that class does X” are wrong, and rather than properly apply that argument where it is actually applicable, you attempt to use it as a hammer for every problem that to you looks like that nail. bolding mine You’re not being called on the carpet because you 'didn’t say what we want" but because what you’re saying is pure unadulterated bullshit, like what YOU claim the hours of the teachers who’ve chimed in to be. > [@](#): > > Here’s the clue; I’ve never said that every teacher is working 20 hour weeks and sipping maragritas on the beach. I’ve never said that no teacher works 80 hours a week. I have said that I take those who say they do with a grain of salt until I see it, and that I do not believe most teachers do work that many hours (or even 60 hours a week). I’ll stand by that. God help your friends, coworkers and family, if you’ll “stand by that” as truth. Because you most certainly did NOT say “take those who say they do it with a grain of salt”. As you prove by your OWN words that **Happy** quotes for you above. Nowhere, in any of your rabid posts did you temper it with “well, take this with a grain of salt” or “I don’t think all teachers work these hours”. Oh HELL no, it was flat out war with “I call bullshit” “it’s not credible” and so on. > [@](#): > > Feel free, however, to make on my behalf all of the other arguments you think I make when you label me as the other, \*\*so that I what I actually say \*\*does not intrude on your cherished and sacred belief system. God forbid that everything that everyone says does not fall into the black and white categories you presuppose. bolding mine “What you actually say” is what has gotten you into so much trouble here in the First place. Good grief you’re a dense one. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/190 "2005-01-13T01:27:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Any other large group like “conservatives” or “republicans”? What about “corporate CEOs”? “U.S. Department of Education”? Ab-sol-fucking-lutely. If I (or anyone) stormed in and made generalizations and accusations against _any_ other group, with no other cite than “Because I know,” the same thing would happen. > [@](#): > > Yes, as does throwing out the race card, as Miller did. How’d he do that? Did he call you a racist name? Near as I can tell, he just used a comparison/substitution to make a point, as I did, and as you have now attempted with the republican and ceo crap. > [@](#): > > You can say whether it was arrogant or condescending. FTR, I initally said ‘arrogant.’ You’re the one who backed me up with use of the word ‘condescension.’ > [@](#): > > I have listened to people, I have simply not been swayed by “Fuck you you arrogant asshole.” If that’s all you got out of this thread, it’s no wonder no one’s changed your mind. No one will ever change your mind on anything, because you only hear what you want to hear. Attempting to claim the moral high ground now doesn’t win you any points after the shit storm you kicked up when you walked in. This thread was chock _full_ of disagreement before you got here. But the disagreement was pretty civil. It wasn’t until you came in full of piss and condescension and put your metaphorical fingers in your metaphorical ears and metaphorically screamed ‘lalalalalabullshitlalala’ to actual teachers, and former teachers, and teachers’ spouses and factual cites-- that’s when people got pissed off. People can disagree with people and remain civil. I diagreed with the OP, as did several others. Some agreed. Civil discourse is possible, even in the Pit. So maybe, just maybe, it’s not your opinion that makes you an asshole in many people’s books (although, to be honest, it doesn’t help, but that’s not my point right now), but rather it’s your delivery and douchebag-like attitude. Anyway, I hope you enjoy living in your own little world where everyone’s trying to screw everyone else for themselves; where no one is ever able to take someone on their word; where the school systems are able to attract and maintain the best and brightest to educate their kids; and where the most vital people to society are also the highest paid. And congrats on the Godwin thing. Cherish it. Relish in it. You’ve earned it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/191 "2005-01-13T01:36:49Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > It’s very simple - Miller was disingenuous. If you read the quote, Miller said that by accusing most of a group of whining (or lying) about how hard they work, I was saying to every teacher that they are a liar. I never said that. I said that, if you say that “most of group X are liars,” anyone who is part of group X is going to take that as an insult. > [@](#): > > That is simply not the case. If I say 51% of a group (call it group X) is purple, that does not mean that if I pick one of the group randomly, they will be purple. It is demonstrably false. Likewise, saying most of a group is whining (or lying) cannot be converted to saying that everyone in that group is lying. It’s simply wrong. And, again, not even remotely something I’ve ever said. > [@](#): > > Of course Miller couldn’t handle that. So he changed what he wrote. That’s right, I changed what I wrote. I, and I alone, have Secret Mod Powers that allow me to go back and change what I wrote on the SDMB. You mean I changed my argument, ya fuckin’ moron. Which I have not done. My position all along has consisted of three central premises: 1. Your very first post in this thread was unecessarily antagonistic and demeaning. 2. You are a hypocrite for whining when people insult you back. 3. You are also very, very stupid. Show me one place in this thread where I have modified any of those premises, or the evidence I have used to prove them. > [@](#): > > Suddenly he throws out the race card, and says, “Hey, if you said most blacks are X, wouldn’t you have a right to be pissed off if you were black?” You don’t actually know what the “race card” is, do you? > [@](#): > > Well, first, he has injected race to try to play a game that makes a statement about teachers akin to a statement about skin color. No, I did nothing of the sort. Apparently, you don’t know what an analogy is, either. See, I took a statement that you made that you considered to be within the bounds of reasonable discourse, and compared it to another statement that was self-evidently inappropriate, even to someone as dim as yourself. > [@](#): > > To show the falacy, I would ask you this: if someone says, “Most pro atheletes are overpaid,” would you then respond with, “Hey, what are you saying, do you think you would have a right to say ‘Most blacks are overpaid?’” If the point I were trying to prove was that making a sweeping generalization about pro-athletes is as insulting to individual pro-athletes as a sweeping generalization about race is as insulting to individual members of that race, wether or not the generalization applied to that individual, then yes, I would make that response. Except I’d phrase it less ineptly, of course. > [@](#): > > It’s apples and oranges, and its a disingenuous technique that is insulting to blacks in this case. Yeah, I bet you know “blacks” about as well as you know teachers. > [@](#): > > It’s an artificial way to attempt to bar any questioning of the teacher’s viewpoint - “Oh hey, teachers are just like blacks; saying that teachers are overpaid is the same about making generalizations about blacks, which is the same as making generalizations that corporate CEOs are overpaid.” It’s ridiculous. You really are a stupid fuckin’ putz, you know that? > [@](#): > > Furthermore, he is applying the race card, as he is hoping to equate saying bad things about blacks (presumably because of the color of their skin) with saying bad things about teachers. The stupid! It BURNS! > [@](#): > > I’m perfectly willing to admit that you might be quite pissed off if you were a teacher and you read my statement. So, you finally admit that you were acting like an asshole since your very first post? Guess that means I win. Yay. > [@](#): > > But you cannot say that the statement says that you as an individual teacher are a liar. You can’t? Then why should a teacher be pissed off by it? > [@](#): > > Of course not. I appreciate what teachers do. I very much doubt that. > [@](#): > > I respect good teachers who actually prepare and put in the effort to do the job well I have a right to say that on average, the average teacher is not underpaid. No one has said that you don’t have that right. You’re wrong, obviously, but you have every right to your ignorance, and any expression thereof. And if you had expressed it _politely_, you would have been corrected in an equally polite manner, and this thread probably would have died two pages ago. But you couldn’t do that, of course. Because in addition to merely being ignorant, you’re also an asshole. And so, you get treated like one. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/192 "2005-01-13T01:37:40Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > Mouth actually drops to floor. > > Are you freaking KIDDING US? **HappyLender** posted line after line from your OWN posts where you continually call teachers both here, and 'out there" liars and you have the unmitigated gall to label it a strawman? Please, instead of saying “HappyLender posted,” please either show me the line (you can find it in my original text or copy it from HappyLender) where I call all teachers liars? I’m more than willing to stand behind my statement that most teachers are not overworked; it’s not the same thing. > [@CanvasShoes](#): > > You’re quite a little piece of work. They had the measure of you MUCH more clearly than I did. > > You’re so far down in that little hole you’re digging for yourself, you might as well settle in and take a little nappy poo, because you’re going to have to wait until the firemen come to rescue you, you’ll never make it up the sides. Thank you. One of the amusing parts of this thread is that there’s a large number of people who seem to think that rather than actually debating something on the merits of the written text, writing things like, “You’ve lost! You’re out there! You are wrong, and a fuckhead,” is somehow a winning argument. As I have done before with others’ rhetorical styles here, let me attempt this debate method on you: “You are really something, you know that? I thought you are reasonable, but now it is clear that you are not. You are so far out there, I’m not even sure that 20 psychologists with Ivy degrees could fish sane out of you.” Oh yes, I have said powerful words - that means I win. > [@CanvasShoes](#): > > Sweetheart, how much more clear could it have been when you discounted every teacher, and teacher’s relative here in this thread and out in the real world with phrases like “I call bullshit” “it’s not even credible” etc (as in the what FIFTEEN or so quotes of yours **Happy** repeats above, that you ARE in fact saying that you can assess how many hours every teacher poster (not every poster, since not all of us are teachers) work? I don’t know Snookums, how much clear could I be when I say there is nothing in the text quoted where I discount **every** teacher here and in the real world? Please find my statement where I say that **every** teacher is overstating how hard they work, and how little they are paid? Go ahead, find it. I’ll wait, because it’s not there. I don’t think that. The incredible thing is that you have great material. All you need to say is that I’m dead wrong that even most teachers are paid an acceptable salary and are not overworked. But you can’t handle that, you can only handle making up your own strawmen where I said that every teacher is lazy and overpaid, because that’s the only way you can create a nail that fits the argument that you want to use. Find a different hammer; some have actually tried to argue against what I’ve said, as opposed to what they wanted me to say as a strawman. > [@CanvasShoes](#): > > God help your friends, coworkers and family, if you’ll “stand by that” as truth. Because you most certainly did NOT say “take those who say they do it with a grain of salt”. Nope. I’ve said I call bullshit. That I don’t find it credible. I’ve said it about the majority of a group as a whole, rather than every member, and I’ve also said that I tend to discount stories of woe and destruction in the teaching profession. If that’s flat out war for you, then I stand by my original assumption. Flat out war for you means someone even questioning the credibility of the “overworked underpaid” party line. > [@CanvasShoes](#): > > “What you actually say” is what has gotten you into so much trouble here in the First place. Good grief you’re a dense one. No, you’re the dense one. Oooooh, another argument winner! ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/193 "2005-01-13T01:48:14Z")
SlyFrog, what you are missing is that you have hit a nerve, and are being far more insulting than any amount of swear words. Personally, I’m not going to get bent out of shape over someone who doesn’t know any better, but my mom currently works 70 hour weeks, including leaving early to teach band for no extra pay, and doing other school events for no pay. And she has to buy her own materials for her class. And the parents of problem kids are never helpful. And the mandates for teaching for the standardized tests are stifling and harmful to the kids, and she has to try and figure out ways to teach them in spite of the school system which is set up to hold kids back (no child can be left behind if none of them ever go anywhere). She loves the kids, but I’m almost sure she would quit if she didn’t have my brothers and sisters to support. It’s just too stressful and damaging to deal with it all. I feel guilty that I can’t help. As you can see, it can be an emotional subject, and calling people liars about it is much harsher than being called… whatever somebody looks up in the generic insult book. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/194 "2005-01-13T01:51:47Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I never said that. I said that, if you say that “most of group X are liars,” anyone who is part of group X is going to take that as an insult. > [@miller](#): > > And, again, not even remotely something I’ve ever said. > [@miller](#): > > You mean I changed my argument, ya fuckin’ moron. Which I have not done. > [@miller](#): > > Show me one place in this thread where I have modified any of those premises, or the evidence I have used to prove them. I already have. I’ll show you again. Here you go: > [@miller](#): > > When you say “most teachers are lying,” and I’m a teacher (which I’m not, btw), then you’ve just called me a liar. Do you understand what I’m saying, here? This is in direct contravention of what you said above. You are saying here, undeniably, that "When you say most X are Y, if I am X you are saying I am also Y. > [@miller](#): > > If the point I were trying to prove was that making a sweeping generalization about pro-athletes is as insulting to individual pro-athletes as a sweeping generalization about race is as insulting to individual members of that race, wether or not the generalization applied to that individual, then yes, I would make that response. You mean like “pro atheletes are overpaid?” Someone said something to that effect in this thread I think; I’ll wait for your “Fuck you” posts to him or her. > [@miller](#): > > Yeah, I bet you know “blacks” about as well as you know teachers. You presume to know my race now, or how well I know a race? Is that just another stereotyped assumption you’ve made to fit me into your neat little categories of what I should be saying and thinking? “He disagrees with me regarding teacher pay, he must not be black or know black people.” By the way, Godwin refers to Nazis and Hitler specifically as a device intended to convey the horror of the Nazi period. It does not refer to general reference to fascist thought and methods. Nice try at another hackneyed and misused device, however. ---
**Author:** ![ethanwinfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/96bed5/32.png) [@ethanwinfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ethanwinfield)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/195 "2005-01-13T01:52:45Z")
I love my career choice! I went into my profession knowing what to expect. I volunteered in classrooms in addition to substitute and student teaching. By the time I signed my first contract I had 4.5 years in the retirement system. Because I had a master’s degree my initial placement was all the way over on the pay scale. When I began teaching I knew exactly what my salary would be. I did not know that years later the pay scale would remain unchanged in spite of COLA increases. When I began teaching, a teacher in step/column A1 would need 4 times his/her annual salary to buy a home. The salary hasn’t changed. Now it would take 8 to 9 times his/her annual salary to buy a home. When I went to the orientation at my work site, I was in-serviced on the copier. We had to punch in a code to use it. We were allotted 600 copies per month. When our code reached the limit, we couldn’t use it until the next month when the secretary reset it. Next, we were told, “You use your own paper.” I thought she was joking. She wasn’t. I knew I would need to make copies, I did not know that they would be at my own expense and limited to 1 copy per student per day. Many of the teachers at my site are in their second career. They “eat crow” on a regular basis because of all the misconceptions they had about teaching. They had no idea that if they needed a stapler they would have to provide it. They had no idea that if they needed to print a document (such as grades), they would be at the media tech’s mercy. They had no idea that they would have to go to Costco and buy their own ink cartridge if their printer ran out of ink. They had no idea that they were required to take professional development over the summer in order to keep their credentials valid. They also didn’t know this: You can’t take it with you. If you leave your district in search of a better district you become a beginning teacher all over again. You may have taught for 17 years, but you are “new” to them. You will be required to go through beginning teacher orientation and go through all sorts of workshops designed for beginning teachers. You may have taught the workshops at your last district, but that is irrelavant. Also, districts won’t accept all of the years of teaching you may have had at another district. You may have been teaching for 17 years, but your new district may only recognize 5 of those years. As a result, veteran teachers would take a huge paycut by switching districts. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/196 "2005-01-13T01:59:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Please, instead of saying “HappyLender posted,” please either show me the line (you can find it in my original text or copy it from HappyLender) where I call all teachers liars? I’m more than willing to stand behind my statement that most teachers are not overworked; it’s not the same thing. So you’re saying only the teachers that tell lies are the liars? And that teachers that say they are overworked and/or underpaid are the ones telling lies? And that the ones who say it’s not a cushy job are the ones telling lies? Then, my friend, I beleive you just called every teacher that posted here a liar. Here, in your own stupid logic: If A=teachers that tell lies, and B=teachers that say they’re o.w. and/or u.p., then A=B If C=teachers who say it’s not cushy, then A=C If D= people who have given you examples of their own experience with the teaching profession right here in this very thread, then D=B=C=A I’m not making this stuff up, folks! > [@](#): > > Originally posted by SlyFrog > Is that just another stereotyped assumption you’ve made to fit me into your neat little categories of what I should be saying and thinking? You got a lot of nerve talking about stereotyped assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![ethanwinfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/96bed5/32.png) [@ethanwinfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ethanwinfield)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/197 "2005-01-13T02:02:39Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Teachers in [this](http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-metro08.html) far Chicago southwest suburban town went on strike. You hear about this all the time, but this just struck me wrong somehow, so here we are. > > So what I’m left to wonder is, who the teachers think they are? Strike? Are you kidding me? You work 9.5 months a year, (after summer break, spring break, winter break and various other ‘institute days’) you have weekends and holidays off, and work in a simple, lilly white, nearly crime-free suburb. You don’t work in the sweltering heat, the freezing cold, or any other element for that matter. You rarely, if ever have to work overtime because your relief didn’t show, and if you’re sick, they have at-will part-time personnel to cover you. OK, so maybe you’re not making 60k a year after all that schooling, and maybe your benefits suck, and sure, some of you have to deal with outdated texts, substandard supplies, and shrinking budgets, and let’s not forget that you’re on the side of the angels here, you’re molding young minds, after all… :rolleyes: > > Bollocks to all of it. ALL OF IT. You knew it was going to suck when you signed up. If you didn’t bother to research the salary and benefits packages when you made your choices, that IS NOT MY PROBLEM, it’s YOURS. I did research my benefits packages when I signed up. It hasn’t changed since then. This year my district wants to cut benefits and pay. That’s right–they want to deviate what it was that I signed up for. Suggestions? > [@](#): > > You (and I) are servants of the public, we’re guardians of the public trust, the public pays our salaries, and taxes fund each and every thing we do. So I’m asking, how is it that you think that actually walking out on the students you’re entrusted with is an OK thing to do? You think it’s a comfort to me knowing that I’m running my fat ass into a burning building with protective equipment made by the LOWEST BIDDER? I mean Jesus Christ on a Trampoline people, the taxpayers depend on you to take charge of thier children so they can go WORK, you see, and make money to pay both my, and your SALARIES. I’ve had it up to my eyeballs with you academic, elitist, union shitbirds; fuck you, you tweed-bound tenure sponges, get back to work. At least you were not expected to pay for that protective equipment out of your own pocket. Although that isn’t a bad idea–firefighters should pay for their own protective gear, hoses, water, and anything else they use in their job. Don’t you also pay taxes? Or are do firefighters have a tax-exempt privilege? > [@](#): > > note: I have no kid in the district, this just pisses me off ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/198 "2005-01-13T02:03:53Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > Please, instead of saying “HappyLender posted,” please either show me the line (you can find it in my original text or copy it from HappyLender) where I call all teachers liars? I’m more than willing to stand behind my statement that most teachers are not overworked; it’s not the same thing. [Your stupidity is un-fucking-real](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5710240&postcount=156) Maybe reading comprehension isn’t your problem, maybe it’s retention. If you want, I can give you about five hundred journal articles detailing what went wrong and how you can try to fix your mangled mind. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > Thank you. One of the amusing parts of this thread is that there’s a large number of people who seem to think that rather than actually debating something on the merits of the written text, writing things like, “You’ve lost! You’re out there! You are wrong, and a fuckhead,” is somehow a winning argument. :smack: Are you really that stupid? I myself have pointed it out to you no fewer than twice. 1) Your premise is factually incorrect and methodoligicaly incorrect. 2) You are acting like an asshole. See, both are true. Again Spunky try to retain two ideas in your head at once. I know that steam starts shooting out of your ears, but try. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > Oh yes, I have said powerful words - that means I win. Listen moron, virtually everybody posting to you has followed the same pattern. 1) your facts are wrong 2) you’re also an asshole. Jeez. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > I don’t know Snookums, how much clear could I be when I say there is nothing in the text quoted where I discount **every** teacher here and in the real world? Please find my statement where I say that **every** teacher is overstating how hard they work, and how little they are paid? Go ahead, find it. I’ll wait, because it’s not there. I don’t think that. No, not every, “most”. That people in this thread who post evidence that you don’t like are probably liars. That you simply do not find such claims in the real world to be credible. I would suggest you finish your highschool degree and learn to read. If you ask very nicely I can suggest a few teachers who could help you with your problems. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > The incredible thing is that you have great material. All you need to say is that I’m dead wrong that even most teachers are paid an acceptable salary and are not overworked. Um. Being that you don’t have one single valid fact… Burden of proof and all that. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > But you can’t handle that, you can only handle making up your own strawmen where I said that every teacher is lazy and overpaid, because that’s the only way you can create a nail that fits the argument that you want to use. No, people can quote you being an asshole and calling people liars. It’s quite easy. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > Nope. I’ve said I call bullshit. That I don’t find it credible. With no data, and in an obnoxious ‘tone’ of voice (or text, whatever). That makes you 1) ignorant 2) an asshole. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > I’ve said it about the majority of a group as a whole, Why do you **still** not get this??? Your ‘scientific study’ was **not valid**. You **can not** speak with any degree of veracity to the majority of the group. Fucking idiot. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > and I’ve also said that I tend to discount stories of woe and destruction in the teaching profession. Also based on zero evidence. Thus, again, ignorant and an asshole. Par for the course Spunky. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > No, you’re the dense one. Oooooh, another argument winner! Good gods, are you braindead? Did you purposefully gloss over the facts and just glom onto the insults? Here’s a tip Spunky, in the English language you need to read _all_ the words. I know, I know, it’s a shock. Blame your English teachers. ---
**Author:** ![LissyLou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5daacb/32.png) [@LissyLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LissyLou)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/199 "2005-01-13T02:05:29Z")
SlyFox Let me see if I have this straight. By your own logic, if I were to say, “In my opinion, most people on the SDMB whose usernames contain the word sly in them are backpedaling cowards who simply can’t admit when they are wrong.”, you would have no right to take offense at this because it wasn’t specifically aimed at you. Is that right? ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/200 "2005-01-13T02:10:58Z")
Just wanted to welcome **ethanwinfield** to the Boards and into the morass. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175.md?page=11)