# Teachers Strike. Seriously? Teachers, feel free to chime in here. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 11, 2005, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175 "2005-01-11T05:25:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/201 "2005-01-13T03:25:53Z")
Ditto on the welcome to **ethanwinfield**. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/202 "2005-01-13T03:39:26Z")
> [@LissyLou](#): > > SlyFox > > Let me see if I have this straight. By your own logic, if I were to say, “In my opinion, most people on the SDMB whose usernames contain the word sly in them are backpedaling cowards who simply can’t admit when they are wrong.”, you would have no right to take offense at this because it wasn’t specifically aimed at you. Is that right? No. I never said that. I might be insulted, I might take offense in that case. It might depend on whether I thought I was in the grouping of “Slys” that you were discussing (what a novel thought). If I was in that grouping, I would have to decide whether I was insulted because your point was wrong and I was therefore angered, or whether I was insulted because your point was right and hit a nerve. However, if there were other “Slys” on the board, it would be a logical fallacy to state that you have said that _ **I** _ am a backpedaling coward who simply cannot admit when I am wrong. See once again, you are using Miller’s second formulation of it, which I did not dispute. I admitted that a long time ago. Unfortunately, no one seems to want to read what is written; rather they’d prefer to read the frantic gruntings of the bash team and then toss out some epitaphs of their own. No one can accept that I have been more than willing to admit to Miller’s second quote; my working theory is that they are so unthinking and intractable themselves that they cannot comprehend the concept of intellectual honesty. ---
**Author:** ![LissyLou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5daacb/32.png) [@LissyLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LissyLou)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/203 "2005-01-13T04:04:47Z")
Whoa, hold up! This thread is 5 pages long. Millers’s second formulation? Quote or link, please, there’s no way for anyone besides yourself to know what specific exchange you are referring to. Also, why do you get to decide if you are in the group I’m insulting? You’re not letting anyone else decide if they are in the group you are insulting. Unless you are trying to say that only the one’s who believe they are guilty of what you are claiming can be in that group, and anyone who knows they are innocent should not take offense. Is that it? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/204 "2005-01-13T04:51:22Z")
[Because this thread needs some humor.](http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=1297448) ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/205 "2005-01-13T05:21:51Z")
**FinnAgain** wrote > [@](#): > > Private school teachers aren’t inherently better, they just have more freedom in curriculum. There’s truth to this. A lot of truth. But it’s not the whole truth. The teacher’s unions have a strong lock on things. Tenure is evil, leading to young fresh teachers being laid off while old jaded ones cling to jobs they don’t deserve. The right to strike is evil. The general government work ethic is evil. Private schools are forced to compete against each other and against the public schools (they must beat the public schools, or why would anyone pay money to send their kids there?), and forced to deliver a higher quality product. Private school teachers compete for jobs amongst each other. Competition delivers a higher quality product. That’s just what it is. > [@](#): > > So teachers should not have any collective bargaining rights? Why exactly is it immoral? Yes, that’s correct. It’s immoral because our children, our society, our future is sacrificed for the better of people who are generally good, kind and decent, but not doing a terribly demanding job, either in terms of work or in terms of qualifications. Being a good person isn’t enough reason to get something undeserved for free on the backs of our children. > [@](#): > > Do you suggest we disband all unions, or is this special? That’s a different discussion. But to answer your question, I’m generally anti-union. > [@](#): > > So, you think your own mother is lying and that her job isn’t hard/stressful/exhausting or whatever else she tells you? For god’s sake man, she’s your mother! If she tells you how hard her job is, the correct response is compassion, not sickly condesencion. Of course I give her compassion! As I do any other friend or family member who tells me they had a hard day at work, even if I don’t think they did. But that’s not the discussion here. The discussion here is about our society and it’s future and it’s betterment. The discussion here is beyond a kind word for my mother, it’s about what’s better for us all. ---
**Author:** ![LissyLou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5daacb/32.png) [@LissyLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LissyLou)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/206 "2005-01-13T05:22:13Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > [Because this thread needs some humor.](http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=1297448) Did I give you permission to post my picture? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/207 "2005-01-13T05:39:58Z")
**Bill H.** : ( **Cheesesteak** too) Sorry if I’ve spoken harshly to you. Sometimes when I’m seeing red and something else follows in the same mold… I still think y’all are wrong. But ah well. > [@Bill H.](#): > > There’s truth to this. A lot of truth. It is most of the truth. You cannot choose what you teach to students in many districts now due to NCLB. You have literally no freedom. Forget about slowing down to help a slower student or teach something that isn’t on the official gude for that day. > [@Bill H.](#): > > But it’s not the whole truth. The teacher’s unions have a strong lock on things. Tenure is evil, leading to young fresh teachers being laid off while old jaded ones cling to jobs they don’t deserve. I haven’t seen this happening, do you have a cite? > [@Bill H.](#): > > The right to strike is evil. The general government work ethic is evil. Well, at least I know where you’re coming from. Don’t agree even a little bit, and don’t understand what a government work ethic is. But ah well. > [@Bill H.](#): > > Private schools are forced to compete against each other and against the public schools (they must beat the public schools, or why would anyone pay money to send their kids there?), Because you can teach religion there. There are often dress codes. There are no state mandated rules to learning. > [@Bill H.](#): > > and forced to deliver a higher quality product. In theory, perhaps. In reality, not always. > [@Bill H.](#): > > Private school teachers compete for jobs amongst each other. Competition delivers a higher quality product. That’s just what it is. No, not necessarily. Private school teachers don’t necessarily hop from school to school, being headhunted all the while. Moreoever, public schools teachers often have to apply against each other or other candidates for positions. > [@Bill H.](#): > > Yes, that’s correct. It’s immoral because our children, our society, our future is sacrificed for the better of people who are generally good, kind and decent, but not doing a terribly demanding job, either in terms of work or in terms of qualifications. That’s just ridiculous. In terms of work it is exhausting. If you need I will furnish you with cites of the percentage of teachers who get serious bladder infections because they don’t even get a chance to pee all day. Moreoever, aint nothing ‘not terribly demanding’ about getting a masters degree. Or staying certified. Honestly, have you taught a single day in your life? If not, how do you think you’re qualified to talk about how hard or easy it is? > [@Bill H.](#): > > Being a good person isn’t enough reason to get something undeserved for free on the backs of our children. I haven’t said anybody should get anything undeserved for free. I said teachers should be paid in a manner that is commensurate with their work. > [@Bill H.](#): > > That’s a different discussion. But to answer your question, I’m generally anti-union. I figured that from the whole striking is evil thing. 😃 > [@Bill H.](#): > > Of course I give her compassion! As I do any other friend or family member who tells me they had a hard day at work, even if I don’t think they did. My point is, what reason do you have to doubt her? Do you think that instead of doing her job she’s getting fanned by slaveboys who bring her grapes and wine? Why not take her at her word, that she’s fucking exhausted and the job is hard on her? ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/208 "2005-01-13T05:42:43Z")
**GLWasteful** wrote > [@](#): > > Y’wanna back this up (that public school teachers are paid far too much for far too little)? Or just leave it lying there? Uh, I did. It’s just common sense: **people pay money to send their kids to private school.** That’s the proof. They pay money, when they could get public education for free. Why would anyone pay for something when the government will give you an alternate for free? Do you believe they’re doing it out of the goodness of their heart, that they just enjoy giving money away? > [@](#): > > Um, no it isn’t. y’wanna back this up? or just leave it lying there? For the record, my children both go to public school. I know each of my son’s teachers. I see them and talk to them every morning when I drop my kids off. I like them. I respect them. They do a job I’d have trouble doing. They’re nice people. But… My trashman is also a nice man, and I like and respect him too. But I don’t think I should pay him more than he deserves. Taking away the trash is a rotten job, but it’s just not that hard and there are plenty of people out there who would like that job. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/209 "2005-01-13T05:47:12Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > Uh, I did. It’s just common sense: > **people pay money to send their kids to private school.** > That’s the proof. They pay money, when they could get public education for free. Why would anyone pay for something when the government will give you an alternate for free? Do you believe they’re doing it out of the goodness of their heart, that they just enjoy giving money away? That’s no proof of anything but that parents prefer/choose private school. The decisions of parents are a correlative, not a causitive. > [@Bill H.](#): > > My trashman is also a nice man, and I like and respect him too. But I don’t think I should pay him more than he deserves. Taking away the trash is a rotten job, but it’s just not that hard and there are plenty of people out there who would like that job. You don’t have to go to school for a minimum of four years (in most cases) to be a garbageman. Moreoever, teaching **is** a hard job, and **there are not** plenty of people who would like that job. At least not plenty of _qualified_ people. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/210 "2005-01-13T06:19:29Z")
**FinnAgain** wrote > [@](#): > > Bill H.: (Cheesesteak too) Sorry if I’ve spoken harshly to you. Sometimes when I’m seeing red and something else follows in the same mold… I still think y’all are wrong. But ah well. I hear you. No problem. > [@](#): > > I haven’t seen this (young teachers let go and tenured teachers staying) happening, do you have a cite? Well, it happened this year at my son’s school. They had to let two teachers go, and they both were non-tenured. I can think of at least two tenured teachers who weren’t as good as either of these two. In my personal estimation, vigor and energy are pretty important to being a successful teacher. Much more important than say knowing the material well. I’m speaking of elementary school teachers, mainly as that’s what’s relevant in my life right now. I realize that higher grades involve more knowledge on the part of the teacher, but frankly I believe my point still stands there. The ones that were lost at our school were fresh and energetic. We lost them because the union had negotiated an unfair advantage to tenured teachers. > [@](#): > > Well, at least I know where you’re coming from. Don’t agree even a little bit, and don’t understand what a government work ethic is. But ah well. It probably wouldn’t surprise you to hear I’m in management. As to government work: Anyone who has held a government job and a private sector job will tell you the private sector job was harder. That’s just what it is. It’s all about competition. Any work is honorable work. But some work is harder. > [@](#): > > Because you can teach religion there. There are often dress codes. There are some that teach religion of course. But plenty don’t, and all the ones I’m personally familiar with around here don’t. (I would have reservations about sending my kids to religious school personally.) > [@](#): > > There are no state mandated rules to learning. I don’t know one way or the other. But I know the quality of education is better there. Funny thing: all the people I know who teach in public schools (including my sainted mother) say what you just said, that there are no state mandated rules to learning, and other things that imply the quality of education is lower. And I hate to say it so bluntly, but that’s just not true. Private education is a better education. > [@](#): > > In theory, perhaps. In reality, not always. Well, sure; not always. But generally, yes. > [@](#): > > In terms of work it is exhausting. If you need I will furnish you with cites of the percentage of teachers who get serious bladder infections because they don’t even get a chance to pee all day. I’d have trouble being a teacher. I have respect for teachers. But pay is all about supply and demand. Or it should be, unless you can get an unfair advantage, as in the case of public school teacher unions. > [@](#): > > Moreoever, aint nothing ‘not terribly demanding’ about getting a masters degree. Or staying certified. In my less-than-expert opinion, having a Masters degree is an artificial requirement, one that’s not really necessary to teach any but the more advanced classes in public school. It’s only required because the government requires it. > [@](#): > > Honestly, have you taught a single day in your life? If not, how do you think you’re qualified to talk about how hard or easy it is? Never have I done the type of full-time teaching we’re talking about. I’ve taught adults classes as part of work activities, and I’ve led kids in various things, such as cub scouts or while volunteering in my kids classes. But in terms of raw hours, it’s just not that tough. And it’s a relative short-term stress, in the sense that when the day is over, it’s over. You may have tests to grade or class to prep or other requirements, but generally the stress is all about the class time. And short-term stress is WAY easier than long-term stress, the sort where you’re constantly dealing with ongoing long-term problems. > [@](#): > > I haven’t said anybody should get anything undeserved for free. I said teachers should be paid in a manner that is commensurate with their work. I believe that “commensurate” means paid by what the market will bear. And that’s less than what teachers are paid because of the union. > [@](#): > > My point is, what reason do you have to doubt her? Do you think that instead of doing her job she’s getting fanned by slaveboys who bring her grapes and wine? Why not take her at her word, that she’s fucking exhausted and the job is hard on her? I’m sure she is tired. I doubt what she considers hard work based on my exeriences in the work force. I’ve seen her work; I’ve seen other work; I see a huge difference. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/211 "2005-01-13T06:25:10Z")
**FinnAgain** wrote > [@](#): > > That’s no proof of anything but that parents prefer/choose private school. The decisions of parents are a correlative, not a causitive. I guess I don’t understand. I proposed that parents pay money to send their kids to private school because they want them to have a higher education. I think that’s a pretty logical assumption. If you don’t believe it’s logical, why do you propose they send them there? I agree that religion can be an issue, so let’s ignore religious schools for a minute: Why do you propose a parent would ever pay to send their child to a non-religious private school, if it weren’t for a better education? > [@](#): > > You don’t have to go to school for a minimum of four years (in most cases) to be a garbageman. Moreoever, teaching is a hard job, and there are not plenty of people who would like that job. At least not plenty of qualified people. If it’s true that teachers are underpaid at current rates, then there would be a large teacher shortage. Instead, there is a glut. Supply and demand tells us that a glut means the price is too high. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/212 "2005-01-13T06:40:07Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > In my personal estimation, vigor and energy are pretty important to being a successful teacher. Much more important than say knowing the material well. I’m speaking of elementary school teachers, mainly as that’s what’s relevant in my life right now. I realize that higher grades involve more knowledge on the part of the teacher, but frankly I believe my point still stands there. Unfortunately thousands of hours of research studies point to other factors which make good teachers (as well as drive and energy). If you are interested I can email you a bunch of peer reviewed journal articles. > [@treis](#): > > As to government work: Anyone who has held a government job and a private sector job will tell you the private sector job was harder. That’s just what it is. It’s all about competition. Careful with that brush. I’ve worked as the CAO of a large office handling property management for over seventeen hundred families. Standing in front of a classroom, trying to engage and challenge every student individually, teaching and working to and with their strengths and weaknesses all the while attempting to remain reflective and in a state of constant growth and learning… Jeez, if I want a relaxing job give me a call center with phones rining off the hook, hundreds of pieces of mail every day to sort and file, etc… > [@treis](#): > > Any work is honorable work. But some work is harder. True. But since you say you’ve never taught a class of children, how do you propose to properly value just how hard it is to do it? > [@treis](#): > > I don’t know one way or the other. But I know the quality of education is better there. How do you know this? What statistics on the performance of children schooled in private schools do you have? Seeing that parents prefer priavte schools is not proof of their effectiveness. Many parents chose thalidomide. > [@treis](#): > > Funny thing: all the people I know who teach in public schools (including my sainted mother) say what you just said, that there are no state mandated rules to learning, and other things that imply the quality of education is lower. Erunh? I believe that freedom from state mandates allows curriculum to be more flexable and effective. I believe that is a fundemental strength of private school, that not-teaching-to-the-test is a very powerful way of learning, while high stakes teasting gets us students who can take tests, and not do much else. > [@treis](#): > > And I hate to say it so bluntly, but that’s just not true. Private education is a better education. You can say it bluntly as many times as you want, and claim it’s true, too. But without data, you certainly won’t convince me. Or prove your point. What cites do you have? > [@treis](#): > > I’d have trouble being a teacher. I have respect for teachers. But pay is all about supply and demand. Or it should be, unless you can get an unfair advantage, as in the case of public school teacher unions. I’m not an economist, so I can’t really speak to that dynamic. I do, however, think it is unfair and unethical to shortchange a dedicated professional if you’re able to just becuase there are other applicants. YMMV. > [@treis](#): > > In my less-than-expert opinion, having a Masters degree is an artificial requirement, one that’s not really necessary to teach any but the more advanced classes in public school. It’s only required because the government requires it. I’m not quite sure what to make of this… Even if a masters degree is ‘aritficial’ it’s still tough to get. And to my knoweledge, many districts do not require all teachers, let alone starting teachers, to have masters. > [@treis](#): > > Never have I done the type of full-time teaching we’re talking about. I’ve taught adults classes as part of work activities, and I’ve led kids in various things, such as cub scouts or while volunteering in my kids classes. So you don’t really know how hard it is to teach children, right? Just to make it clear. > [@treis](#): > > But in terms of raw hours, it’s just not that tough. And it’s a relative short-term stress, in the sense that when the day is over, it’s over. You should go through this thread and read it again. Many teachers don’t have the luxury of setting down their work once they leave the school. Grading papers, writing lesson plans, etc… takes up a lot of time too. > [@treis](#): > > You may have tests to grade or class to prep or other requirements, but generally the stress is all about the class time. And short-term stress is WAY easier than long-term stress, the sort where you’re constantly dealing with ongoing long-term problems. Teachers and relatives/friends of teachers have stated that stress can radiate from class hours and work can take over free time. > [@treis](#): > > I believe that “commensurate” means paid by what the market will bear. And that’s less than what teachers are paid because of the union. Commensurate pay means paying them what they deserve. And as you’ve pointed out, there isn’t exactly a free market in public school education. So, as a non -economist, I don’t understand how market forces apply. > [@treis](#): > > I’ve seen her work; I’ve seen other work; I see a huge difference. But you haven’t **done** her work. It’s easy to talk about how cushy a job is until you try to do it. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/213 "2005-01-13T06:43:08Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > I guess I don’t understand. I proposed that parents pay money to send their kids to private school because they want them to have a higher education. I think that’s a pretty logical assumption. If you don’t believe it’s logical, why do you propose they send them there? I agree that religion can be an issue, so let’s ignore religious schools for a minute: Let me clear up some confusion then. Yes, many parents may send their children to private schools because they believe the quality of education is better. But that belief of many parents does not equal a fact. > [@treis](#): > > Why do you propose a parent would ever pay to send their child to a non-religious private school, if it weren’t for a better education? Several reasons, including discipline and the reputation of the school. But, in any case, just because parents think private schools are better is not proof that private schools **are** better. It’s just proof that parents think they are. > [@treis](#): > > If it’s true that teachers are underpaid at current rates, then there would be a large teacher shortage. Instead, there is a glut. Supply and demand tells us that a glut means the price is too high. Dude, have you even read this thread? There is a teacher shortage, and it’s getting worse. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/214 "2005-01-13T06:48:46Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > **people pay money to send their kids to private school.** > > That’s the proof. They pay money, when they could get public education for free. Why would anyone pay for something when the government will give you an alternate for free? Do you believe they’re doing it out of the goodness of their heart, that they just enjoy giving money away? How does that support your argument that public school teachers are being paid too much for too little? I supports the argument that private schools are _better_ than public schools, which I don’t think anyone is disputing. But then, private schools generally have more money to attract better teachers, keep the student/teacher ratio at a reasonable rate, provide the necessary educational equipment in sufficient quantities and quality, and support the numerous extra-curicular activities that are vital to a child’s development. Public schools are underfunded. Teachers aren’t paid enough, so it is hard to both hire and retain the competent ones, especially when the public schools have to compete with the private institutions for hiring. Because of this turnover, there’s a chronic shortage of teachers, meaning those who stay are over-worked and stretched too thin. Further, the lack of money for supplies means that teachers have to pay for them out of their own pocket. If they don’t have the money, the kids have to do without. If public schools paid thier teachers a fair wage for the work they do, there would be more people willing to take those jobs. The more teachers in a district, the more attention each individual kid gets, making it less likely that they’ll get left behind or ignored. The better teachers won’t be siphoned off by the private schools. If the public schools had more funding (and, from some of the stories told in this thread, some government oversight on how they spend it), they’d be able to pay teachers more, pay more teachers, give them the tools they need to do their job, and provide a more rounded education for their charges. > [@](#): > > My trashman is also a nice man, and I like and respect him too. But I don’t think I should pay him more than he deserves. I don’t think anyone disagrees with that. > [@](#): > > Taking away the trash is a rotten job, but it’s just not that hard and there are plenty of people out there who would like that job. I can’t help but wonder how a garbageman’s paycheck stacks up to a teachers. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/215 "2005-01-13T06:48:50Z")
> [@](#): > > They pay money, when they could get public education for free. Why would anyone pay for something when the government will give you an alternate for free? You getting a free pass on paying taxes or something? Ain’t nothing free in this world, **Bill**. I’ve gone to both private and public schools. I know that private schools often mandate some level of parental involvement as part of the tuition (mine did anyway), so that means the teachers there have a _lot_ more hands pitching in. Even if it’s not mandated, parents who send their kids to private school, tend to be a little more “hands-on” in their children’s education. [From a report by the U.S. Dept. of Education:](http://www.education-world.com/a_admin/admin035.shtml) > [@](#): > > Lack of parental involvement is more likely to be seen as a serious problem by public school teachers. > “Private school teachers share a greater sense of community within their schools.” A strong sense of community among teachers leads to more effective instruction and greater satisfaction with working conditions. Smaller class-size, a greater feeling that they have a control over curriculum and discipline, increased parental involvement, and a completely different learning envirnoment also contribute to why private schools deliver a “higher quality product.” Not just “competition” amongst the teachers. Not to mention the bureaucracy of a public school system is much large than your typical private school. In bureaucracies, it’s all too easy for the people at the top to ignore/overlook/be unaware of the work in the trenches (by the teachers, in this case). This is why the teachers in most districts work together to make sure their needs are met. A better education at a private school isn’t necesarily indicative of the quality of the teachers there. It might be one factor. But there are other factors present. But I will agree that private schools often do attract quality teachers. Why? As the DoE reports, they often offer a better work environment. > [@](#): > > From the DoE summary: > Private school teachers express more satisfaction with their working conditions… Better working conditions attracts people to work there. > [@](#): > > …although teacher attrition is higher in private schools. Could pay be a factor for this attrition rate? I don’t know. It’s possible. It still appears that if you offer better working conditions, better pay, better benefits, you’ll attract better candidates to the job. And that’s good for the kids. And these public school teachers who are negotiating contracts are negotiating for all of these things. As far as layoffs go, it’s always unfortunate. And every contract has different policies as far as lay-off policy goes. But if lay-offs are happening, that usually means it’s a funding thing. And the more noise these teachers’ unions make, and the more lobbying they’re involved in, the more visible their needs become to those holding the purse strings. And as a parent, this should deeply offend you (as I see it does) as well. Less teachers means larger class sizes. Not to mention the loss of young, energetic teachers. (As an aside, I’ve seen it happen more times than not that when districts lay off teachers in the spring, they re-hire them in the fall after all the retirements are factored in.) As a taxpayer, you _are_ paying tuition, and should be raising as much of a stink to every policy maker in this country as a private school parent would if things go south at their school. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/216 "2005-01-13T06:57:48Z")
For the record, those quotes were from me, not **treis**. So it seems we have a few points of contention where we’ll have to agree to disagree: a) **Bill** : Supply and Demand should set wages. **FinnAgain** : Skills and Compassion should set wages. b) **Bill** : I’ve seen things in this life, and I say a teachers job isn’t that hard or stressful compared to others. **FinnAgain** : Without doing a teacher’s job, you can never know how hard it is or compare it to other work. c) **Bill** : People pay more for a private education because it’s a better education. **FinnAgain** : They may think it’s better, but it may not be. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/217 "2005-01-13T07:07:53Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > For the record, those quotes were from me, not **treis**. Shit! I’ll email a mod to fix that. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/218 "2005-01-13T08:04:41Z")
**Miller** wrote > [@](#): > > How does that support your argument that public school teachers are being paid too much for too little? I supports the argument that private schools are better than public schools, which I don’t think anyone is disputing. But then, private schools generally have more money to attract better teachers, keep the student/teacher ratio at a reasonable rate, provide the necessary educational equipment in sufficient quantities and quality, and support the numerous extra-curicular activities that are vital to a child’s development. Well, first I don’t think it’s a given that private schools have more money. (I don’t know one way or the other, but I don’t think it’s a given. It could very well be that public schools get more money). But more pertinent to this thread, I think it’s fair to say that private school teachers are paid less than public school teachers. I base this on discussions I’ve had with a number of public school teachers and private school teachers. Also, a while back we had this discussion (in another forum), and cites came up that backed this. I don’t have said cites. So, if we look at school outside the influence of unions and government, we see a system that pays less wages and performs better. So, it seems like a reasonable conclusion that public school teachers are overpaid. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/219 "2005-01-13T08:10:46Z")
In general private school teachers make less than public school teachers. However, I can **not** stress enough that the majority of a private school’s advantage over a public school is that they don’t have to teach to the test. That allows actual instruction. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/220 "2005-01-13T09:16:21Z")
**Happy Lendervedder** wrote > [@](#): > > You getting a free pass on paying taxes or something? Ain’t nothing free in this world, Bill. Yes, but this makes my point even more so. Why would a parent pay to send their child to private school, when they’re already paying for a public education, unless they felt it was for a better education? > [@](#): > > I know that private schools often mandate some level of parental involvement as part of the tuition (mine did anyway), so that means the teachers there have a lot more hands pitching in. Even if it’s not mandated, parents who send their kids to private school, tend to be a little more “hands-on” in their children’s education. > > Lack of parental involvement is more likely to be seen as a serious problem by public school teachers. Absolutely. I’m fortunate, in that the school district I’m in has a lot of well-to-do families, and as such, there’s a lot of private money that goes into the public schools, and there are a lot of parent volunteers. Like 2 days a week or more, there will be one to four parents in each room helping out with things. My wife volunteers a couple days a week herself, and I volunteer once or twice a month, and also help for five or ten minutes every morning if there’s something quick that needs doing. My mother taught most of her career in a below average school district. The parents didn’t seem to care as much (kids had low rates of doing homework; low turnout for parent-teacher conferences, etc.), and even if they did care, they weren’t able to take time off to help in the classroom for financial reasons. I think this issue of “parent involvement” is an **enormous** part of how good an education is. > [@](#): > > Not to mention the bureaucracy of a public school system is much large than your typical private school. In bureaucracies, it’s all too easy for the people at the top to ignore/overlook/be unaware of the work in the trenches (by the teachers, in this case). I completely agree with this as well. I see this tied in to my point, in the sense that the whole public school system is a monopoly with no competition, and that’s why massive bureacracies form, and why things stagnate. > [@](#): > > This is why the teachers in most districts work together to make sure their needs are met. But here we differ. If I were a teacher, I’d look out for “my needs” and agree with this. But I’m not. I’m a consumer of teachers services. I don’t see why teachers should be paid above market prices for less-than-market service. > [@](#): > > A better education at a private school isn’t necesarily indicative of the quality of the teachers there. It might be one factor. But there are other factors present. I certainly agree there are other factors. > [@](#): > > But I will agree that private schools often do attract quality teachers. Why? As the DoE reports, they often offer a better work environment. Makes sense. But also, I think private school environment fosters an attitude where people work harder. > [@](#): > > It still appears that if you offer better working conditions, better pay, better benefits, you’ll attract better candidates to the job. And that’s good for the kids. Well, I agree with this assessment in general. But “better” has no upper bound. Why not pay them $200k/year; you’re bound to get the very finest. The bigger issue is paying them what’s fair. And unionized public school wages are above wages dictated by supply and demand, and therefore unfairly high. > [@](#): > > As far as layoffs go, it’s always unfortunate. And every contract has different policies as far as lay-off policy goes. But if lay-offs are happening, that usually means it’s a funding thing. And the more noise these teachers’ unions make, and the more lobbying they’re involved in, the more visible their needs become to those holding the purse strings. > > And as a parent, this should deeply offend you (as I see it does) as well. Less teachers means larger class sizes. Not to mention the loss of young, energetic teachers. I am upset, but ultimately I don’t see this as a teacher problem; I see it as a parent/community problem. As I say, I respect the teachers, but I don’t see why they deserve to have a government-enforced legal lock on things. > [@](#): > > As a taxpayer, you are paying tuition, and should be raising as much of a stink to every policy maker in this country as a private school parent would if things go south at their school. Oh, I’m involved. I make my opinion known. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175.md?page=12)