# Teachers Strike. Seriously? Teachers, feel free to chime in here. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 11, 2005, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175 "2005-01-11T05:25:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/261 "2005-01-14T11:56:42Z")
That may be true, Finn, but in the absence of standardized tests, how does an outsider gauge the student’s progress, and the effectiveness of schooling? The only measure left is grades, which are assigned individually by each teacher. One teacher’s A work is another teacher’s B work, there is no consistency. If a school is turning out students unprepared for the world, how do you find out before it is too late to help? ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/262 "2005-01-14T13:40:19Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > **Scumpup** wrote > > Fair enough. > > The system of seniority, as fought for and won by the teachers unions is wrong and a disservice to our society. So allowing the best trained, most experienced employees to keep their job is a bad thing? This is common practice throughout most workplaces, union and nonunion (nepotism, politics etc notwithstanding of course), so why is it suddenly evil when teachers have the same consideration as the rest of us? And I’m talking of teachers that are good representatives of their profession, not some guy who merely has been there the longest. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/263 "2005-01-14T13:50:28Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > **Scumpup** wrote > > Well, I think it should be based on ability. Granted, that’s not a pure thing to measure, but you can try your best. > > You can measure such things as: > > - grades of students on some formalized test > - improvement of students on some formalized test > - grade of teacher on some formalized test > The goal should be to keep the best teachers and eliminate the worst. The process of ranking by seniority does not do this. This “teaching to the test” thing is one of the things that has gotten our school system to the point that it’s at now. And that is to say, NOT turning out successful graduates the way it should. That’s most of the reason that the NCLB thing has people in such an uproar, the whole “formulized test” thing. I don’t believe that seniority, at least in our school district is determined only by time on the job. Job performances are taken into strong consideration as well. So that if Teacher A with only 3 years on the job is doing spectacularly well, and Teacher B with 20 years is just coasting, and it came to crunch time, Teacher A would have the job. For one thing, our muni looking at the bottom line the way they always do, new teachers get paid less, so getting the older teachers to take early retirement or forcing them into it, saves money. That’s not exactly fair either. I’m still not getting why, in any other industry, reasonable treatment, reward for time in service (getting to keep your job), fairly regular raises and ability to continue getting raises with no “cap” are givens, but people just accept that it shouldn’t be so for teachers. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/264 "2005-01-14T14:10:02Z")
One addendum regarding tenure and seniority. In PA, tenure travels but seniority doesn’t. IOW, once you achieve tenure in the Pennsylvania system, you are tenured even if you take a job in another PA district. Seniority applies only in the district where you gain it. So, if I work for 20 years in District A and then take a job in District B, I am at the bottom of the seniority list in District B. Bill H.- pretty much anything I might have said in response to your suggestions has already been said by others. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/265 "2005-01-14T14:29:45Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > I don’t know how to put it any plainer than I have. Private schools compete for students. Public schools do not. Competition makes for higher quality. Then private schools do not compete with public schools, which is precisely what I said. Leading subsequently into what I also pointed out: That what you referred to as competition, isn’t. **Private** schools may be competing for students, but public schools aren’t. You show up at a public school, you’re a student. Are you a special-ed student? Doesn’t matter. Got a lot of problems that adversely affect your school performance? Doesn’t matter. Play basketball really, really well? Well, not to worry, a private school will come along and offer you a scholarship. Show up at a private school and expect to be accepted and ‘mence to learnin’? Don’t make me laugh. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry; did you just say that you haven’t taught either? Well, yeah. I thought you claimed that you had read this thread. Did you not? Can you point out to me where I claimed to be anything other than the spouse of a public school teacher? > [@](#): > > Then you have no business telling me that I can’t know how hard their job is without living it. And if on the off chance you’re right that I can’t know, then you have no business defending their position when by your own logic, you don’t know how hard their job is! See above. Jesus shat, man! If you’re going to claim that you’ve done something (in this case, have read the thread) then it’s very much in your best interest to do so. Otherwise, you speak from your ass and look like a fool. > [@](#): > > Well, the most obvious and prominent is that they have huge and numerous vacation breaks. Asked and answered any number of places throughout this thread. Once again, see above. > [@](#): > > I don’t know how to break this to you, but saying this really demeans your position. It’s the equivalent of looking at mathematical problem and saying “math doesn’t hold the answers to everything”. Really? How so? Understand that in no way am I trying to wave away economic theory, just telling you that attempting to live your life entirely according to market dictates makes you a miserable bastard to spend any time around. Especially when you try to force other people into your economic box. > [@](#): > > Duh. they strike to derive unfair advantages for their members. See, you’re allowing your whole Jekkyl/Hyde thing to peek through your facade. Once more: Teachers strike when they’ve been shat all over by the administration one time too many (which translates to several times too many for most folk). D’you get it now? Should I say it again? Or are you going to continue to be willfully ignorant about the real world? Either way, I manage to sleep at night. But in the interests of fighting ignorance, I’ll wade in as many times as you think you need. The problem seems to be that you think the entire world works according to your dictates. And it doesn’t. Nor is it likely to start doing so anytime soon. You’re in a district that sounds like seven different shades of wonderful. But the rest of the world isn’t. You also think that you know precisely what a teacher does and therefore what he or she is worth. But you don’t. You also think that your answers to establishing a better system of teacher pay are in some way workable. As **FinnAgain** , **CanvasShoes** and I have pointed out, they’re not. Coupled with your belief that private v. public schools are some sort of competition, as well as any number of other things. . .well. . .you think an awful lot, but you’re not right when you do so. Are you seeing the problem here? ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/266 "2005-01-14T20:46:08Z")
To add to what **CanvasShoes** just said: “Seniority” has become such a forbidden word here in the world of higher ed. that we part-timers have to negotiate for it by other terms–i.e. rehire rights, right of first refusal, etc. And it doesn’t have to do entirely, or even mostly, with longevity of service. It has to do more with evaluations, mainly the ones given by our dept. heads, deans and/or peers, and perhaps to some degree the students. (Bear in mind that students tend to give their profs low scores when the students themselves have performed poorly but wish to blame someone else, so what they say isn’t always accurate.) And that’s the situation only if you are on a campus where people are actually enlightened as to such matters. ``` Not that it isn't possible, but I cannot conceive of anyone going out on strike because they want to, because they think it's fun, and so on. It is a last resort, a worst case scenario, and something that we (in my local, anyway) try to avoid at all costs. ``` ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/267 "2005-01-14T21:12:35Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > That may be true, Finn, but in the absence of standardized tests, how does an outsider gauge the student’s progress, and the effectiveness of schooling? Several possibilities exist, actually. The first and most obvious to me is replacing standardized grading with individual teacher reports. After all, a (just for argument’s sake) one to five page paper describing a child’s behavior and skills tells you a lot more than a number or letter grade. The New School (a college) in Manhattan does just that, and they’re quite respected in the field. On the issue of test mechanics I’m afraid that I can’t give much of an answer as any indepth discussion I’ve been present for has made my eyes glaze over and roll into the back of my head. There are a few educators out there who’ve developed better tests, but they’ve had them shot down by administrative bodies. As a side note, did you know that the SAT was originaly developed as an IQ test for the army, but they got rid of it when they realized that all it tested for was how good you are at taking it? See, that’s the problem with standardized tests they don’t test anything. There is no correlation between standardized scores and performance at higher levels of education. Often, standardized tests are a piss poor way of getting at a specific student’s body of knowledge. They’ve also been demonstrated to be culturally biased. Etc… So it becomes sort of Swiftian, and we’re all seeing who can jump the highest/farthest in order to prove which college we should go to. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > If a school is turning out students unprepared for the world, how do you find out before it is too late to help? Simple: by asking the teachers, looking at samples of a student’s work, taking a personal interest in each student’s educational career, etc… The urge to make education a ‘factory based’ system whereby you put kids in and finished products come out is a bad paradigm. The system is organic, and top-down legislative practices are naturally met with techer resistance. Study after study has shown that the most effective scholastic enviornment involves three basic elements. Teachers doing a good job and being in a supportive enviornment, parents helping out on their end, and students being willing to cooperate. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/268 "2005-01-14T22:05:21Z")
**FinnAgain** wrote > [@](#): > > As a side note, did you know that the SAT was originaly developed as an IQ test for the army, but they got rid of it when they realized that all it tested for was how good you are at taking it? > See, that’s the problem with standardized tests they don’t test anything. There is no correlation between standardized scores and performance at higher levels of education. Often, standardized tests are a piss poor way of getting at a specific student’s body of knowledge. They’ve also been demonstrated to be culturally biased. Etc… I dispute the idea that the SAT “won’t test anything”, or that there is no correlation between a high score on it and performance at higher levels of education. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/269 "2005-01-15T00:29:46Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > I dispute the idea that the SAT “won’t test anything”, Didn’t say that the SAT won’t test anything. I did say that the SAT tests nothing other than how good you are at taking the SAT, which is true. > [@Bill H.](#): > > or that there is no correlation between a high score on it and performance at higher levels of education. Can’t find the research directly right now so here’s a cite which points to it, but again, it’s most likely done in peer reviewed journals, so if you’d like I can find it and email it to you. [Like this 'un](http://www.fairtest.org/k12/psacks.html) > [@](#): > > University graduate departments have shown unwavering reliance on the GRE to predict a candidate’s chances of success. This, despite reams of studies showing just the opposite: One’s scores on the exam have almost no relationship whatsoever to his or her performance in graduate school. > > What about the validity of the SAT, which is required for admission to many undergraduate colleges and universities? Numerous studies show that SAT scores explain just about 16 percent of the variation in actual freshman grades. A student’s high school record alone is the best predictor of performance in the first year of college; further, the SAT, when combined with high school grades, adds only modestly to the predictive power of high school grades alone. > > What is more, standardized tests like the SAT and GRE tend to especially penalize women and many minority students. Females tend to do worse than males on standardized tests but consistently earn better grades than males. Researchers consistently find that adding test scores to the admissions equation results in fewer women and minorities being accepted than if their academic records alone were considered. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/270 "2005-01-15T17:04:02Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > I dispute the idea that the SAT “won’t test anything”, or that there is no correlation between a high score on it and performance at higher levels of education. You keep a tight grip on that straw now, hear? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175.md?page=13)