# Teachers Strike. Seriously? Teachers, feel free to chime in here. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 11, 2005, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175 "2005-01-11T05:25:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/81 "2005-01-11T20:38:06Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Happy, I understand the concept. The problem is that teachers as a whole seem to be willing to accept shitty pay and shitty working conditions. It’s hard to negotiate better conditions when you already are known to accept swill. > > In most places, employees are willing to tell their employers to stick their shit where the sun don’t shine, because they’re getting a better job. My company takes great pains to analyze the labor market and provide “competitive” compensation and benefits. If they didn’t they’d never be able to hire and their workforce would vanish, they know this. Teachers stick around because of a higher purpose, so they get walked all over. So-- hey teachers, are you listening?-- these are your options: 1. If you don’t like it, you can leave. Just like a stock broker who doesn’t like where he’s working. Result: kids in many districts are left with a shitty teacher pool. 2. Bend over and take it because you have a higher purpose. Result: Very unhappy, oftentimes financially strapped people who are dedicated to, and good at, improving our children’s lives. 3. Stand up, not be willing to accept shitty pay and shitty working conditions, not accept swill, and not get walked over. Result: Have fucksticks throw crucifixion metaphors at you, have people call you whiny, and have people generally shit all over you and think you’re selfish and greedy. Using a #2 pencil (that the district may or may not provide) please pick one. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/82 "2005-01-11T20:53:18Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > The teacher lobby in this country has elevated whining about the cause to an art form. Asshole. Teachers have as much of a right to want better contracts as you do. Negotiating for a better life isn’t whining, idiot. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > I’ve known tons of teachers. It’s not an incredibly simple job, but in most schools it is a pretty sweet gig. You have statistics to back up this claim about ‘most’ schools? What am I saying, of course you have multiple cites and you’re not just being a loudmouthed idiot. Right? Right? > [@SlyFrog](#): > > If I hear one more person bitching about not making enough money with a worthless commodity bachelor’s degree in english Heavens forfend, someone got a degree, and wants to earn more money. For shame, for shame! Luckily, we have enlightened people like you to point out that a teacher’s desire to educate people is worthless and only a ‘commodity degree.’ > [@SlyFrog](#): > > However, just as when the big corporation whine and complain about how they really need to be able to drill for oil in Alaska or they will wither away and die, when teachers start babbling about how they work through Christmas, work 80 hour weeks, etc., I call bullshit. And yet, since teachers **do** end up doing things just like that, you’re a loud mouthed fool. Right? > [@SlyFrog](#): > > At lunch today, I got together with 3 friends. Together, we were able to come up with roughly 30 teachers we know well enough (through family, friends, etc.) to know roughly how much they are working, what they are doing, etc Whoa boy, thirty whole teachers! Y’all should submit a journal article to NCTE or something. Stunning research, that. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > . No one comes even close to what some of the people are saying in this thread. The rational mind would conclude that the teachers in your sample did not have the same situation as those who’ve posted in this thread. And idiot might say that the people posting in this thread are posting bullshit and whining. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > I mean come on, when you write this stuff about how teachers are working 80 hour weeks, straight through the summer and all of the holidays, etc., don’t you think it strains your credibility a bit? Not if it’s actually happening you fucking moron. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > Oh, it’s because they love it so much. Someone needs to teach the children. There’s not possibly any self-interest; the job consumes them, they could think of doing nothing else. If they can only reach that one child . . . Uh huh. That’s **right** you smarmy gaseous windbag. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > Then out of the other side of the mouth, you get oh, by the way, the jobs sucks, no one in their right mind would do it, it’s horrific, the kids are horrific, blah blah blah. Both can be true you fucking idiot. I’m a teacher because the most valuable thing to me is to do something with my life, to help others. That doesn’t mean I don’t want to be paid fairly or that I want to put up with bullshit working conditions. Try to hold two ideas in your mind at once, okay spunky? > [@SlyFrog](#): > > I guess all teachers are just Jesus-like martyrs for our greater societal good (once again, another bit of spin you get from the teacher’s party line). Oh yeah, the teacher party line. (By the way, you are infectious human waste :)) But, yes, teachers **do** end up sacrificing, and then having some asshole like you come along and try to paint a picture where they’re the badguys. You, sir, are a waste. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > We should heap cash at their feet, if only we heard their cries! Heavens forbid we pay our teachers better! Oh, the horror, the horror! > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I read these horror stories, and wonder how a reasonable person decides to stick with a hideous job like this for decades, rather than explore greener pastures elsewhere. You know, where the work week is about 40hrs, where you’re not attacked and sued and actually have a valid contract for work.It amazes me, with all these horrible things happening to them, with their advanced degrees and work ethic that they decide to go back to the hellhole year after year to earn their pittance. Some people are motivated by more than money, asshole. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Because, if they don’t like their job, they find another one that’s better. I hear horror stories about terrible working conditions, and in the next a good school gets 3 resumes for 2 job positions. How does that work, where schools are scrambling to find decent teachers but thousands of teachers work in hovels with miniscule pay. Teachers strike because they’re not willing or able to go find another job. Because they’re **teachers** , and teachers teach. That’s their job, that’s their calling. That’s what they do. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > They try to shove their requirements down the throats of the district, Moron. Asking for fair pay and working conditions isn’t shoving anything down anybody’s throat. Just because you are a teacher doesn’t mean you need to give up and become a slave of the district. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > There’s something fucking with this labor market. Maybe it’s the “charity” aspect of it, where teachers are loathe to leave because of the children. Maybe it’s tenure, where you get job security and don’t want to give it up. Maybe we need a teacher crash to force gov’ts to free up more money. If enough teachers leave the industry, they WILL start to pay better to lure them back. Bullshit. Teachers are leaving, in droves. And have been for some time now. And the salaries are not going up. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Teachers stick around because of a higher purpose, so they get walked all over. And then have idiots like you and **SlyFrog** come in and tell them to just accept it, to stop whining, to get down off the cross… So, again, fuck you both sideways. Assholes. ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/83 "2005-01-11T20:59:24Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The problem is that teachers as a whole seem to be willing to accept shitty pay and shitty working conditions. Here I thought that they were striking to try to, like, change that, and get, y’know, better pay. Shows what I know. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/84 "2005-01-11T21:03:36Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > Ever try standing outside during recess listening to the deafening shrieks of the devilspawn that is today’s youth at 105 in the shade? I truely doubt that’s ever happened in Illinois. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/85 "2005-01-11T21:04:31Z")
> [@Happy Lendervedder](#): > > But as you said, you’ve never done it, so you don’t really know for sure. No, I know plenty of people who do it. I grew up with people who did it. I know for sure. > [@Happy Lendervedder](#): > > So three people who know, maybe, 30 teachers, but have never done this full time themselves, it would seem, are qualified to estimate how much a teacher actually works. All the while you discount stories from people who ACTUALLY DO THE FUCKING WORK?? What a presumptious prick you are. Of course I discount it. It’s way out of line with any credibility. My four year old kid believes if he tries really hard, he can probably fly unaided by machinery. In fact, he occassionally tells me that he has. I guess I should just throw all logic, common sense, and observation of other human beings out the window and take his word for it, after all he ACTUALLY DID THE FUCKING FLYING!! People have a very specific agenda; they want more money. Somehow it is not shocking to me that people might inflate, unconsciously or not, how much work they really put in to their jobs. I have no reason to give teachers a pass on the “I work 80 hours a week and never take vacations” bullshit any more than anyone else who says that they do it as a class when it’s pretty clear they don’t. Of course, we could see whether anyone else would be willing to take on the horrible jobs. We could actually enforce accountability for student performance, get rid of the bullshit state mandated hoops that protect existing teachers, and see how many people who are working their local Blockbuster with that bachelor’s degree decide that a job with an reasonable salary that gives summers off is acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/86 "2005-01-11T21:16:13Z")
I really don’t think this is going anywhere useful, because it’s pretty much an apples and oranges argument. The conditions for teachers in this country are so disparate that it’s likely that everybody who has remarked on them is right. Buttonjockey is looking at the reality in the area where he lives, which is that, for the most part, teachers are well paid and work in decent conditions. If I were to assume that all teachers had working conditions like the ones in our local districts, I would never be able to understand what the problem was. Teachers in our district start at about 40k and go up from there. Yes, I know that the hours they are actually at the school are not the hours they work, what with planning and grading and such, but it’s not a bit unusual for the teacher parking lot to be nearly empty before I pick my kids up after school. They’re out of there pretty fast. Yes, they do extra-curricular activities, but for the big stuff, like directing the play, they get paid extra, and it’s a choice. They take turns at things like games and other activities, and they are required to show up at a specified number during the year, something under five, I think. I have a great deal of respect for many of them, and less for some of them, but that’s because I actually know how they work and what they do. The thing that bugs me is the last couple of times they threatened to go on strike, they were asking for huge pay raises. Particularly during the recent economic downturn, and especially when they’re being paid well above average as it is. 8 %, 7%, and then 8% over the next three years is a lot to ask for, when the average raise is about 2%, and many people aren’t even getting that. The last time there was a referendum they made a big thing about how all the extra-curricular programs would have to be cut if the thing didn’t pass, and they sent the kids home to lobby their parents about it. And then when it did pass, the first thing that happened was that the teachers threatened to go on strike for large raises. So, around here it’s a whole different situation from some that have been described. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/87 "2005-01-11T21:19:14Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Heavens forfend, someone got a degree, and wants to earn more money. For shame, for shame! Luckily, we have enlightened people like you to point out that a teacher’s desire to educate people is worthless and only a ‘commodity degree.’ Hell no, get as much as you can. That’s exactly what teachers are doing. It’s the capitalist way. Only don’t pretend that you are doing it out of some concern for the kids. You are trying to rake in as much cash for yourself as you can, same as everyone else. Since that money is coming from me, I’d prefer to keep an eye on how much you rob from the system, same as everyone else. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Whoa boy, thirty whole teachers! > Y’all should submit a journal article to NCTE or something. Stunning research, that. Yeah, as opposed to “I” (with no conflict of interest in the fact that I am personally involved) work 80 hours a week, every week, without pause, even though that does not appear to be the pattern of any of the countless teachers I have witnessed. You’re right, I should take the self-interested individuals in this thread over what I have observed. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > The rational mind would conclude that the teachers in your sample did not have the same situation as those who’ve posted in this thread. And idiot might say that the people posting in this thread are posting bullshit and whining. Yeah, or that the ones posting in this thread are lying. That they have a chip in the game, and have a conflict in interest. That no human being will ever feel comfortable saying, “You know, I’m really paid too much, I don’t work as hard as other people.” > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Both can be true you fucking idiot. I’m a teacher because the most valuable thing to me is to do something with my life, to help others. That doesn’t mean I don’t want to be paid fairly or that I want to put up with bullshit working conditions. Oh, but the problem is I believe you likely are being paid fairly. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Try to hold two ideas in your mind at once, okay spunky? Yes, you’ve shown a wonderful ability to be rational and objective in this thread. I’ve never seen such sympathetic engagement of counterargument before from another human being. Bravo. Oh wait, what was your reasoned quote? “Oh yeah, the teacher party line. (By the way, you are infectious human waste :))” Again, bravo. I’m the one that has difficulty remaining rational, right. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > But, yes, teachers **do** end up sacrificing, and then having some asshole like you come along and try to paint a picture where they’re the badguys. You, sir, are a waste. Yes, you are the badguys. Like many other badguys, you’ve tried to paint a sympathy picture so that no one can assail your increasing demands. Then, when someone dares question whether you really have it as bad as you claim, you launch into name calling and insults to try to beat down any voice of dissent. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Heavens forbid we pay our teachers better! Oh, the horror, the horror! Why should we? They are generally being paid enough for what they do. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Some people are motivated by more than money, asshole. Except for teachers, apparently, who are leaving in droves from what I hear from you. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Moron. Asking for fair pay and working conditions isn’t shoving anything down anybody’s throat. Just because you are a teacher doesn’t mean you need to give up and become a slave of the district. No, it’s not. Calling people assholes and screaming like a child when they dare to question your need for more money is “shoving something down someone’s throat.” It’s also petty emotional extortion. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > So, again, fuck you both sideways. > Assholes. Hopefully you get that type of thing in with your students too; it must be tough on the playground dealing with all of the violence and profanity you have to face. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/88 "2005-01-11T21:27:38Z")
Happy, the problem is, as I see it, #3 really isn’t an improvement over #2. There have been many teacher strikes over the years, and they’re still getting #2’d all over. Sure, you’ll get some extra bennies, a few percent here, and a lower insurance cost there, but you’re still mired in overall lousy job conditions. What did it take for DoctorJ’s mom to strike? Not low pay or lousy benefits, it took an actual reduction in net pay year to year to get them to act. Without judgement… only observation… If you and your colleagues consider your job a “calling” and do it for non-financial reasons, you will not get the financial benefits that other people get. You just won’t. The unwillingness to walk away puts you in an inherently bad negotiating position. I don’t have anything against teachers. I do have something against people who choose a career that has never in history enjoyed high pay or good benefits, then complain about the low pay and bad benefits, and expect everyone to sympathize with them. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/89 "2005-01-11T21:34:19Z")
> [@](#): > > No, I know plenty of people who do it. I grew up with people who did it. I know for sure. Hmm, yeah. I think pretty much everyone here fucking grew up with TEACHERS AROUND! It’s called going to school. > [@](#): > > People have a very specific agenda; they want more money. Somehow it is not shocking to me that people might inflate, unconsciously or not, how much work they really put in to their jobs. I have no reason to give teachers a pass on the “I work 80 hours a week and never take vacations” bullshit any more than anyone else who says that they do it as a class when it’s pretty clear they don’t. FTR, when teachers say how much they work, it isn’t always while sitting at a negotiating table or on a picket line just so they can get more money. My experience has been: Me: Hey Tom, wanna go to the bar tonight? Tom: Can’t. Gotta correct papers. Me: Jill, wanna go see a movie this Saturday? Jill: Sorry, I gotta go to play practice. Me: How about after? Jill: Can’t. Gotta correct papers. Me: Hey Ernie, wanna go to the bar? Ernie: Gotta work on my lesson plan. Me: All night?? Ernie: Dude, I’m exhausted. So tell me, **SlyFrog** , you arrogant douchebag, what motivating factors would these people have for sitting at home on a Thursday night, Friday night or Saturday afternoon, instead of going out? Granted, keep in mind that these people know that I have no power whatsoever to grant them any more money or better health benefits. Keep in mind too that these are good friends, whom I hang out with in the summer months, so there’s no need to worry about them just trying to dodge my company. Also, they’re not homebodies; they like to go out and have fun. So what exactly keeps them from having a social life during the school year? Are they, in fact, just sitting at home alone to make people _think_ they’re working? And, if so, do they alert the superintendent that, yet again, this Friday, they will be working from home? ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/90 "2005-01-11T21:36:13Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > That’s right, it’s bullshit. At lunch today, I got together with 3 friends. Together, we were able to come up with roughly 30 teachers we know well enough (through family, friends, etc.) to know roughly how much they are working, what they are doing, etc. … WOW, I’m **impressed**. Thirty people? That your friends and you “know of”? Well then, that’s _ **such** _ an extensive and scientific case study of teachers. Damn, we didn’t know there was an actual cite on how they all were such slackers and all. Silly us. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I mean come on, when you write this stuff about how teachers are working 80 hour weeks, straight through the summer and all of the holidays, etc., don’t you think it strains your credibility a bit? People can see with their own eyes. It just comes across as absolutely ridiculous. I know the tendency of every human being to inflate how much they work and how valuable they are, and I know to discount it. It just doesn’t usually get inflated as badly as it does with teachers. It’s just not even close to credible. Yes and as those who have either been teachers, or are related to teachers have SAID here, it is indeed happening in many areas. When I was still in Texas, we lived down the road from a teacher. I thought they got summers off. She had to go back to work at the end of June. Mandatory in-house training and all. Hell, I thought this about teachers long before I actually did my sub stint. They should be paid hazard pay just for having to deal wtih MY kids, let alone the massive vermin that exists out there today. Look, people are TELLING you that they know teachers and what they have to deal with. As “proof” you give anecdotal information on what teachers “actually do”. Here’s an article regarding teacher shortages. Of course the Dept of Education claims it’s not true. [http://www.millennium-debate.org/ind28aug015.htm](http://www.millennium-debate.org/ind28aug015.htm) And here are a few others with information on teacher burnout and reasons given. Sorry, this first one is a really thick comprehensive study, but in the first paragraph, it says “…the inability to adequately staff schools with **qualified** teachers”. (bolding mine). It continues on with that teachers shortages are due to increased student enrollment and teacher retirement (gee, I wonder why?). But it’s a pretty lengthy read. It discusses in depth the teacher turnover problem of QUALIFIED teachers. I’m hoping that those who are against teachers having the right to improve their station in life understand the difference between a qualified teacher and any old warm body that just happens to have the degree in hand? Upon webferreting (MUCH better than google :D) Teacher burnout etc, I found way too many links to include. And many of those links were websites that themselves included dozens upon dozens of links to references and help with teacher burnout. Reasons included in these sites were as we’ve already discussed here, classroom size, type of job, hours etc. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/91 "2005-01-11T21:45:18Z")
> [@Happy Lendervedder](#): > > So tell me, **SlyFrog** , you arrogant douchebag . . . Why would I take you or anything you say seriously after that? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/92 "2005-01-11T21:46:35Z")
…and so Sly Frog withdraws. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/93 "2005-01-11T21:48:22Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > Hell no, get as much as you can. That’s exactly what teachers are doing. It’s the capitalist way. Only don’t pretend that you are doing it out of some concern for the kids. You are trying to rake in as much cash for yourself as you can, same as everyone else. Since that money is coming from me, I’d prefer to keep an eye on how much you rob from the system, same as everyone else. Yes, wanting enough funding so teachers don’t have to go into their own pocket to pay for books is, indeed, for the students. Wanting to be able to live a decent life is, yes, partially selfish. But frazzled unhappy teachers don’t teach well, either. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > Yeah, as opposed to “I” (with no conflict of interest in the fact that I am personally involved) work 80 hours a week, every week, without pause, even though that does not appear to be the pattern of any of the countless teachers I have witnessed. You’re right, I should take the self-interested individuals in this thread over what I have observed. Self interest doesn’t mean they’re lying. And your ridiculous ‘scientific study’ is so easily debunked that it’s not worth my time. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > Yeah, or that the ones posting in this thread are lying. I see, conduct a half assed “research study” and you get the balls to call us liars? Fuck you. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > That they have a chip in the game, and have a conflict in interest. That no human being will ever feel comfortable saying, “You know, I’m really paid too much, I don’t work as hard as other people.” Self interest =/= lying. Again, try to hold two ideas in your mind at once spunky. Teachers have self interest, they’re also not lying. My, what a concept! > [@SlyFrog](#): > > Oh, but the problem is I believe you likely are being paid fairly. Yes, that is the problem, becuase it’s not based on the real world. In other words, you’ve got a stupid idea and you’re trying to treat it as if it’s true. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > Yes, you’ve shown a wonderful ability to be rational and objective in this thread. I’ve never seen such sympathetic engagement of counterargument before from another human being. Bravo. Oh wait, what was your reasoned quote? You’re a step up from a troll, I see no reason to be polite to you. You’re an asshole. Deal with it. Moreoever, calling a troglodytic asshole on his bullshit doesn’t make me less than rational. Again, name calling =/= irrationality. Try to keep them thar ideas in your head spunky, more than one _will_ fit. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > Then, when someone dares question whether you really have it as bad as you claim, you launch into name calling and insults to try to beat down any voice of dissent. That’s right… all I’ve done is call you names. And yes, while you are an asshole, you also have very poor reading comprehension. Your entire ‘factual’ structure is based on a horribly planned and executed ‘scientific study’. In other words, you’re full of shit and got a bad case of verbal diarrhea. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > Why should we? They are generally being paid enough for what they do. Hey shit for brains, wanna back up this claim with, I don’t know, a cite? Because if you do I’ll be happy so send you upwards of 100 articles on teacher retention. You game? > [@SlyFrog](#): > > Except for teachers, apparently, who are leaving in droves from what I hear from you. [Idiot](http://www.ncpa.org/pi/edu/pdedu/pdedu162.html) [Moron](http://www.nea.org/teachershortage/index.html) Do some fucking reasearch, educate yourself, find out the facts before you open your mouth and vomit forth feces. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > No, it’s not. Calling people assholes and screaming like a child when they dare to question your need for more money is “shoving something down someone’s throat.” It’s also petty emotional extortion. Reading comp, Spunky. You are **both** wrong **and** an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/94 "2005-01-11T21:48:52Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > WOW, I’m **impressed**. Thirty people? That your friends and you “know of”? Well then, that’s _ **such** _ an extensive and scientific case study of teachers. Damn, we didn’t know there was an actual cite on how they all were such slackers and all. Silly us. :rolleyes: Yes, as opposed to the equally valid cite of, “I’m a teacher, and I work really hard (by the way, I deserve more money),” or “I know a teacher, and she works really hard (by the way, she deserves more money).” > [@CanvasShoes](#): > > Look, people are TELLING you that they know teachers and what they have to deal with. As “proof” you give anecdotal information on what teachers “actually do”. What are you talking about? Do you know what anecdotal means? “Look, people are TELLING you that they know teachers and what they have to deal with.” But all my information (which comes from teachers I know and have observed) is magically anecdotal, while those who support teachers have the magical “non-anecdotal” wand. > [@CanvasShoes](#): > > Here’s an article regarding teacher shortages. Of course the Dept of Education claims it’s not true. Of course they are all full of shit and idiots. We only respect experts who put in the time and expertise to actually study the issue. . . oh, wait. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/95 "2005-01-11T21:54:11Z")
:smack: Umm, err It helps if I actually INCLUDE the links. > **[Home](https://www.cambridge.org/)** > > We unlock the potential of millions of people. Our qualifications, assessments, academic publications and original research spread knowledge and spark enquiry. [http://ehlt.flinders.edu.au/education/iej/articles/v4n2/dworkin/paper.pdf](http://ehlt.flinders.edu.au/education/iej/articles/v4n2/dworkin/paper.pdf) [http://www.gre.ac.uk/~eduweb/interest/h&s/stress2a.htm](http://www.gre.ac.uk/~eduweb/interest/h&s/stress2a.htm) And of course because I closed my webferret searches, I can’t relocate the really good 40 page report. Damnit. Well, ignore that one then if you like. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/96 "2005-01-11T22:03:24Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Reading comp, Spunky. > You are **both** wrong **and** an asshole. I’ve just decided to use your argumentative technique. To save me some time, imagine that this in response to each of your lines of text: Eye on the ball Sparky! Can you even read? You’re a moron! I’m really intelligent (my mom always said so, and back when I was 5th in my class in high school, all the teachers said so), and you are wrong! Asshole. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/97 "2005-01-11T22:03:45Z")
Hey, idiot. The point isn’t that your anecdotal evidence isn’t valid **for the sample you selected**. But that it means absolutely zilch for the population of teachers at large. Indeed, you’ve been offered evidence that things are different for some teachers in the workforce, and you’ve had the nerve to call them liars. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/98 "2005-01-11T22:05:21Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > I’ve just decided to use your argumentative technique. To save me some time, imagine that this in response to each of your lines of text: No, my debate tactic is to first point out **why** you are full of shit (eg. your ‘study’ which you try to generalize to millions of teachers.) And \* then\* I call you on being a shit spewing trog. See? ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/99 "2005-01-11T22:08:30Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > What are you talking about? Do you know what anecdotal means? “Look, people are TELLING you that they know teachers and what they have to deal with.” But all my information (which comes from teachers I know and have observed) is magically anecdotal, while those who support teachers have the magical “non-anecdotal” wand. No. I’m saying that you can’t rebut anecdotal with anecdotal. Hello? > [@](#): > > Of course they are all full of shit and idiots. We only respect experts who put in the time and expertise to actually study the issue. . . oh, wait. Well gosh and golly, silly me our government would NEVER do anything that was self-serving or against the wishes of it’s populace…Oh wait. Back atcha sweetheart. Look, bottom line. It is beyond arrogant and ignorant to assume a position of “X professions deserve respect and the ability to improve their situations by raises, benefits etc, but Y professions…Well, who do they think they are? They already have it cushy, Besides, they OWE us since they’re paid by the government”. It doesn’t matter what you do for a living, whether you are the lowliest 7/11 employee, or the biggest CEO of our wealthiest most successful mega-corp. No one has the right to expect someone else to just accept their lot in life without attempting to improve it “because they owe us”, or “their life is already so cushy” or whatever. Jeez. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/100 "2005-01-11T22:10:57Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Hey, idiot. The point isn’t that your anecdotal evidence isn’t valid **for the sample you selected**. But that it means absolutely zilch for the population of teachers at large. Indeed, you’ve been offered evidence that things are different for some teachers in the workforce, and you’ve had the nerve to call them liars. I don’t recall saying that no individual teacher works hard. I offered my anecdotal evidence in response to those offering their own anecdotal evidence suggesting that the great mass of teachers were overworked and underpaid. I do not believe that they are. I have also heard to many individuals babble on about their insane work schedules (and have seen how hard they actually work) to take such stories with anything other than a grain of salt, particularly when those stories place the individual far outside of the norm I and others have observed for their profession. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175.md?page=6)