# Teachers Strike. Seriously? Teachers, feel free to chime in here. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 11, 2005, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175 "2005-01-11T05:25:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/141 "2005-01-12T02:22:29Z")
> [@Happy Lendervedder](#): > > And **CanvasShoes**? Well said. :o thank you ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/142 "2005-01-12T02:23:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, where exactly do you come from where “You make me want to puke” is not considered insulting? The Republic of Bulimia? **GOLD.** ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/143 "2005-01-12T02:30:48Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > Please then, go back to that first post and tell me where I called “someone” a liar. Go ahead. > > Exagerate much? Please, where did I say "everyone who disagreeds with me is a whiner, liar, or emetic?. Already done. I guess I understand your antipathy towards teachers, since they apparently so totally failed to teach you reading comprehension that you don’t even know what the fuck your own posts mean. > [@](#): > > You really believe that the general statement that I believe the teachers union and most teachers who bitch about not being paid enough are whiners, and that I don’t believe the stories of most teachers who complain about their 80 hour work weeks is the really the equivalent to or worse than “Fuck you Miller, you are a fucking moron.” > > As I said, if you can sit there and say that with a straight face (which you have now done twice), well, there’s not much more to say to you. Yes, I really, truly, believe that. I place a pretty high premium on honesty, and do not take lightly insinuations to the opposite. “Fuck you,” is an essentially meaningless expression of hostility. “You’re a liar,” is an imputation on my integrity. I take the later far more seriously than the former. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/144 "2005-01-12T03:24:17Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yes, I really, truly, believe that. I place a pretty high premium on honesty, and do not take lightly insinuations to the opposite. “Fuck you,” is an essentially meaningless expression of hostility. “You’re a liar,” is an imputation on my integrity. I take the later far more seriously than the former. Unlike **Miller** I find the phrase “fuck you” to be an over the top verbal assault. HOWEVER, when compared to telling someone they’re lying? To their FACE no less? It is reduced to no more importance than saying “you poopyhead”. In essence, **Miller** is right on the money in describing for you, the meanings and tone of your first posts here. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/145 "2005-01-12T03:27:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Already done. I guess I understand your antipathy towards teachers, since they apparently so totally failed to teach you reading comprehension that you don’t even know what the fuck your own posts mean. In other words, you can’t. You cannot point out in my first post where I said that someone here was a liar. So you lied. Which places your statement below in the proper light; true hypocrisy: > [@Miller](#): > > Yes, I really, truly, believe that. I place a pretty high premium on honesty, and do not take lightly insinuations to the opposite. “Fuck you,” is an essentially meaningless expression of hostility. “You’re a liar,” is an imputation on my integrity. I take the later far more seriously than the former. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/146 "2005-01-12T03:57:14Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > In other words, you can’t. You cannot point out in my first post where I said that someone here was a liar. So you lied. Which places your statement below in the proper light; true hypocrisy: Better back that fucking horse up, Hoss. > [@SlyFrog](#): > > If you listen to most teachers, they’re working 3000 hours a year, shoveling the snow in front of the school (and clearing out the parking lot too, which is strange, because they can’t afford a car to drive to the school, only their punk students can), blah blah blah. Are you, or are you not, accusing most teachers of lying about how hard they work at their job with this statement? Better pay closer attention to your own posts, you weasely little shit. I get a rare thrill out of catching dissembling fucks like you in their own words, but this ain’t even hard. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/147 "2005-01-12T04:05:13Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > you have weekends and holidays off Good point. I believe that teaching is one of the few professions to enjoy this benefit. :rolleyes: PS This perk is why I became a teacher in the first place. No seven day weeks for me, thank you very much! And working on Christmas Day? Fuggedaboutit! ---
**Author:** ![griffen2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ce7236/32.png) [@griffen2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffen2)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/148 "2005-01-12T04:14:26Z")
**Slyfrog** In what is at this time of writing your most recent response to **Miller** you wrote > [@Slyfrog](#): > > In other words, you can’t (prove I’ve called anyone a liar). You cannot point out in my first post where I said that someone here was a liar. So you lied. Which places your statement below in the proper light; true hypocrisy: > > (bracketed supplementation mine) Your own words contradict you. You have insinuated and, at times, outright defamed several posters in this thread as liars. In your first post to this thread you wrote: > [@Slyfrog](#): > > If you listen to most teachers, they’re working 3000 hours a year, shoveling the snow in front of the school (and clearing out the parking lot too, which is strange, because they can’t afford a car to drive to the school, only their punk students can), blah blah blah. In other words most teachers are liars, or at the very least, serial exaggerators. In your second post in this thread you wrote > [@Slyfrog](#): > > Everyone can lobby as much as they want as far as I’m concerned. However, just as when the big corporation whine and complain about how they really need to be able to drill for oil in Alaska or they will wither away and die, **when teachers start babbling about how they work through Christmas, work 80 hour weeks, etc., I call bullshit.** > > (bolding mine) Several teachers and ex-teachers in this thread have stated that they have, at one time or another, worked holidays or known a teacher who has had to work holidays. Are you calling them liars? Wait…hold up, don’t answer that, of course you are. In post 81 of this thread **Finnagain** wrote > [@Finnagain](#): > > The rational mind would conclude that the teachers in your sample did not have the same situation as those who’ve posted in this thread. And idiot might say that the people posting in this thread are posting bullshit and whining. To which you responded > [@](#): > > Yeah, or that the ones posting in this thread are lying. In other words, teachers who have volunteered their personal stories as evidence of the lack of inclusiveness in your sample have simply been creating fiction to push an agenda. If you’re going to be so blatently dishonest as to suggest, in the face of all the evidence to the contrary, that you haven’t called anyone a liar, at least try not to be so fucking artless about it. ---
**Author:** ![griffen2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ce7236/32.png) [@griffen2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffen2)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/149 "2005-01-12T04:15:46Z")
And I see that **Miller** has already beaten me to it. [sub]_skulks away, muttrering incoherently_[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/150 "2005-01-12T04:53:15Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > In other words, you can’t. You cannot point out in my first post where I said that someone here was a liar. So you lied. Which places your statement below in the proper light; true hypocrisy: He quoted your first post and that is what he meant, but in case you missed it, here it is again: > [@](#): > > The teacher lobby in this country has elevated whining about the cause to an art form. I mean, they’re really, really good at it. > > If you listen to most teachers, they’re working 3000 hours a year, shoveling the snow in front of the school (and clearing out the parking lot too, which is strange, because they can’t afford a car to drive to the school, only their punk students can), blah blah blah. Sounds like you’re saying they’re lying to me. > [@](#): > > … I’ve known tons of teachers. It’s not an incredibly simple job, \*\*but in most schools it is a pretty sweet gig. \*\*And here’s the thing; particularly when you look at the average degree and institution the teacher went to. Like it or not, teaching is, for most teachers I have seen doing the job, commodity work. Here you don’t call them liars persay, just insult their degrees and general worth. > [@](#): > > If I hear one more person bitching about not making enough money with a worthless commodity bachelor’s degree in english who is making far more than the national average salary for less hours and more job security, I might just puke. Cry me a river. And here, you just plain don’t know what the hell you are talking about. “Worthless commodity bachelor’s”. And you know that it’s this how? “far more than the national average salary for less hours and more job security”. This statement is not only pure conjecture (as many people have provided actual CITES for their info and you have NOT), on your part, but is in direct opposition to what many teachers in this thread had already TESTIFIED to, which again, is pretty much calling them liars. And since, as these cites show, national incomes are NOT “far less than teacher’s salaries, with far less [sic] hours” I don’t think you’re fibbing exactly, but you’re certainly very much overexaggerating. Here is a cite with the “average” teacher’s salaries by state. [http://www.aft.org/salary/2003/download/2003Table1.pdf](http://www.aft.org/salary/2003/download/2003Table1.pdf) Bear in mind that these are only their annual salaries, are averaged out and do not reflect the hours worked. Taking the middle of the road wages (arizona), and extrapolating out what their hourly pay would be based on even if they were only working 60 hours a week, 42 weeks a year, it comes out to about 16 dollars an hour. I am more inclined to believe that a good percentage of them work a lot more than that. Though higher than I’d thought they would be, they’re hardly 'far above the national average with far less hours". Furthermore, for skilled labor that is “only” making 10-15 bucks per hour, they actually get paid for ALL of the hours they work and they get overtime for over 40 and over 8 (well in AK it’s over 8 and over 40, it varies by state) too. Couldn’t find a site which averaged all salaries across comparable fields, so I am posting the monster site, which allows you to look up specific industries and categories within those industries. [http://salary.monster.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/swzl\_newsearch.asp](http://salary.monster.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/swzl_newsearch.asp) Upon entering several white collar occupations requiring similar degrees and education, I see that teaching is either below, or at the same level. The teaching salaires sites I was able to find, did not contain entry level salaries, but just “average” salaries. The monster site does show entry, midlevel and top level, as well as different positions within the fields. Based on the teacher salary sites I found, I don’t know if they’re including administrators and school board professionals in their computations. At any rate, it appears that the average “teacher” salary (depending upon whether they meant just those still teaching, or were including any official or administrative type) are either below, at, or in a few cases SLIGHTLY above the few similar white collar jobs that I looked up. But, they were far below many of the other white collar jobs that I looked up as well. Mine for instance starts out at about 57k. some others as much as Again, HARDLY “far more pay and far less hours”. Oh, and by the by??? A HELL of a lot less than some of their “poor” downtrodden blue collar brothers and sisters. I looked up a few plumbers, electricians and construction workers too. Although, more than firemen…hmmmm, could be some may be seeing sour grapes. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/151 "2005-01-12T05:08:41Z")
> [@griffen2](#): > > And I see that **Miller** has already beaten me to it. > > [sub]_skulks away, muttrering incoherently_[/sub] Dammit! You AND **Miller** beat me to it, and did a better job too. And frogge? Do NOT get me started on defending the idiotic propaganda spread by the moron greenies regarding ANWR. Thanks A person who has actually had a hand in writing safety and continguency plans for Prudhoe Bay oilfield companies and contractors, and who actually has formal schooling in oilfield technology (though i never went into that line of work, I went to an enviro company instead, more interesting, better pay). ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/152 "2005-01-12T07:24:19Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Huh? I have a masters and 8 years of experience AND I work in dangerous environments for a rather successful division in a very successful company. I make $50k a year. Half my ass. I started out with a bachelors making $9.50/hour and our current entry level salary for someone with a bachelors is…$12.00/hour. > > Get off it, teachers aren’t THAT fucking under paid. Yes, your curent _entry level_ salary for someone with a bachelors is $12/hour. But what’s your current salary for someone with 30 years of experience and a masters? 'Cause $12/hour is the _maxed-out_ pay for the teachers in my mom’s district. Typical pay in that district for someone with 8 years of experience (at which point you’re required to have your masters finished) is about $30K. Half your ass, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/153 "2005-01-12T14:08:11Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > Huh? When did I say I work 80 hours a week every week? A thousand pardons. A misreading on my part. The rest of my post, though, stands. As to the 80 hour weeks, until yesterday evening, you were the only one throwing that number around with abandon. As a matter of fact, I specifically said that my wife probably doesn’t work that many hours in a week. I would put it at closer to 60. To date, **CanvasShoes** and **Master Wang-Ka** have used a figure of 80 hours a week, and I can easily believe it, because I know what my wife does for a living. Unlike you. **Master Wang-Ka** also makes interesting points about teachers being contractually bound. With that being the case ( **Cheesesteak** , I’m looking in your direction) would **you** walk off of the job that you went to school and got your degree for? Or would you stay and fight? And if you would walk, keep in mind that you’ll not be working as a teacher again. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/154 "2005-01-12T14:53:14Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Better back that fucking horse up, Hoss. > > Are you, or are you not, accusing most teachers of lying about how hard they work at their job with this statement? > > Better pay closer attention to your own posts, you weasely little shit. I get a rare thrill out of catching dissembling fucks like you in their own words, but this ain’t even hard. Amazing, it’s pretty easy when you change around your own statement, and then accuse someone else of breaking it. You still haven’t shown me where I called someone a liar. If you don’t see the difference between saying that I don’t believe all of the teachers that whine about how they are working 3000 hours per year, and calling someone (a person, calling someone out) in this thread a liar in my original post, as you stated, then once again, I pity you. Because if you don’t understand personal attacks versus generalized opinions about a group, you should try to learn the difference. But feel free to keep making things up so you can pat yourself on the back. You have quite the ego; most of your posts appear to be “Ah ha, I caught you now!” type of self-masturbatory congratulations. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/155 "2005-01-12T15:17:27Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > A thousand pardons. A misreading on my part. The rest of my post, though, stands. No problem, it happens. > [@GLWasteful](#): > > As to the 80 hour weeks, until yesterday evening, you were the only one throwing that number around with abandon. As a matter of fact, I specifically said that my wife probably doesn’t work that many hours in a week. I would put it at closer to 60. To date, **CanvasShoes** and **Master Wang-Ka** have used a figure of 80 hours a week, and I can easily believe it, because I know what my wife does for a living. Unlike you. Come on, don’t you see the problem behind this? I never once said, “I absolutely know for certain what any given individual is working.” That is not, and that never was, my point. But two things: 1. If I told you, “Hey, my wife works 140 hours per week,” are you honestly telling me that it would not at least have a little tingle in the back of your head that says, “Is that time at work, or time actually spent working? Are they including commuting time? That just doesn’t seem likely.” Well bump the scale down. When people say they are, on a routine basis, working twice the normal amount of weekly hours, not taking holidays, etc., don’t you think that someone else might have a right to take it with a grain of salt until they see it themselves? I work with professional; I know how many people inflate their hours. It’s not usually even intentional; people come into work at 8 in the morning; they have a ten minute coffee break that extends to 20, their lunch goes a little long; they forget that they really didn’t leave at 8 p.m. but at 7:30, etc. And when you look back from weeks later, you have even more of a tendency to accidentally fudge how hard you work. When people start claiming huge hours, on average, I’m sorry, but I’m going to be critical of it. I won’t simply turn off my common sense meter. 2. It doesn’t really matter to me if your wife works 80 hours a week. The point is that I do not believe that is a standard number for most teachers across the board. I have already said that there are exceptions. But this thread, to my knowledge, was never about “Should the 1 in 100 or 1 in 1,000 teachers who are working 80 hours a week receive more pay.” If someone is really putting in that time, then I say give them more money. Of course, with the teacher’s union, the other teachers are likely to get jealous, and there won’t be any pay to those who work harder or smarter. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/156 "2005-01-12T15:57:25Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > would **you** walk off of the job that you went to school and got your degree for? Or would you stay and fight? And if you would walk, keep in mind that you’ll not be working as a teacher again. In a typical non-teaching job, people walk away from jobs they got their degrees for every day. It doesn’t automatically make them a pariah where they can’t get a job in the same field again. And many folks decide to change career paths when the situation suits them, it’s not all that uncommon. Note, I’m not suggesting walking out on a contract, but finding a new job when your contract runs out. If a teacher can’t walk away from one district to find better pay in another district, that tells me there is an inherent problem with the market, not a problem with the district. A strike against a district will only bring that district up to the regional norm, it won’t improve the regional problem of low pay. That requires a more fundamental change. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/157 "2005-01-12T16:01:13Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > Amazing, it’s pretty easy when you change around your own statement, and then accuse someone else of breaking it. > > You still haven’t shown me where I called someone a liar. If you don’t see the difference between saying that I don’t believe all of the teachers that whine about how they are working 3000 hours per year, and calling someone (a person, calling someone out) in this thread a liar in my original post, as you stated, then once again, I pity you. Because if you don’t understand personal attacks versus generalized opinions about a group, you should try to learn the difference. > > But feel free to keep making things up so you can pat yourself on the back. You have quite the ego; most of your posts appear to be “Ah ha, I caught you now!” type of self-masturbatory congratulations. Listen, **Frog** , you can argue semantics and split hairs with **Miller** all fucking day, and claim some “victory” for yourself. Doesn’t change the fact that your overall tone here was condescending, arrogant, and accusatory-- not just to teachers as a group, but specifically to the ones sharing their experiences here. And you start whimpering like a baby when people call you on it (and a few choice words, to boot)? You spent much of your posts insinuatuing what a big bunch of liars they are, and the only thing coming out of their mouths must be gross exaggerations. So fuck you. Several posters have already thrown back at you the accusations you’ve spewed here, but apparently your head was up your ass, or something. So here, again, is proof you called people liars: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by SlyFrog > when teachers start babbling about how they work through Christmas, work 80 hour weeks, etc., I call bullshit. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by SlyFrog > That’s right, it’s bullshit. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by SlyFrog > It just doesn’t usually get inflated as badly as it does with teachers. It’s just not even close to credible. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by SlyFrog > Then out of the other side of the mouth, you get oh, by the way, > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by SlyFrog > Of course I discount it. It’s way out of line with any credibility. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by SlyFrog > I should take the self-interested individuals in this thread over what I have observed. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by SlyFrog > Yeah, or that the ones posting in this thread are lying. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by SlyFrog > Yes, you are the badguys. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by SlyFrog > I have also heard to many individuals babble on about their insane work schedules After re-reading those suckers, do you still try and paint yourself as the innocent martyr here, who was undersevedly “attacked” with naughty words? You claim that you did no wrong by saying teachers are lying about their job situation; in fact you claimed this over and over, even after teachers, teachers’ friends and their spouses came in to tell you otherwise. Quite rudely, I might add. But you know what? This is the Pit, so I guess you can do that. Therefore I stand by my use of the term “arrogant douchebag,” and toss it in your direction. I also stand by all uses of “asshole,” “whiny little bitch,” and “moron.” It’s the Pit, dickhead. And now this… > [@](#): > > Originally posted by SlyFrog > Come on, don’t you see the problem behind this? I never once said, “I absolutely know for certain what any given individual is working.” That is not, and that never was, my point. …Is bullshit because you said… > [@](#): > > I grew up with people who did it. I know for sure. Yes, your point was that you were some sort of unbiased expert in teachers’ lives, and were ably to accurately assess (along with three of your friends) how many hours they (the posters here, as well as teachers everywhere) worked, based upon the 30 teachers you “know.” Explain that one, skippy. But I imagine you’re going to ignore this post just as you ignored me the last time I threw something out you couldn’t reasonably answer. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/158 "2005-01-12T16:46:23Z")
> [@Happy Lendervedder](#): > > Yes, your point was that you were some sort of unbiased expert in teachers’ lives, and were ably to accurately assess (along with three of your friends) how many hours they (the posters here, as well as teachers everywhere) worked, based upon the 30 teachers you “know.” > > Explain that one, skippy. > > But I imagine you’re going to ignore this post just as you ignored me the last time I threw something out you couldn’t reasonably answer. Sorry, I don’t need to explain things that you’ve made up as a strawman because you can’t discuss what I’ve actually said. Unless you want to show me where I said I could accurately assess how many hours every poster here, along with every teacher everywhere worked. Of course once again, because I didn’t say what you want, you need to make up your own facts to fit the situation. Because someone somewhere taught you that “People who argue that one individual does X does not mean every individual of that class does X” are wrong, and rather than properly apply that argument where it is actually applicable, you attempt to use it as a hammer for every problem that to you looks like that nail. Here’s the clue; I’ve never said that every teacher is working 20 hour weeks and sipping maragritas on the beach. I’ve never said that no teacher works 80 hours a week. I have said that I take those who say they do with a grain of salt until I see it, and that I do not believe most teachers do work that many hours (or even 60 hours a week). I’ll stand by that. Feel free, however, to make on my behalf all of the other arguments you think I make when you label me as the other, so that I what I actually say does not intrude on your cherished and sacred belief system. God forbid that everything that everyone says does not fall into the black and white categories you presuppose. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/159 "2005-01-12T17:05:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Sorry, I don’t need to explain things that you’ve made up as a strawman **because you can’t discuss what I’ve actually said.** (emphasis mine) I threw 12 of your quotes out there in my last post, sparky. I asked you to explain how, after saying all the shit you did (and that I quoted), you can say with a straight face you didn’t accuse anyone here of lying, being less than credible, or being full of bullshit when talking about their experiences. > [@](#): > > Unless you want to show me where I said I could accurately assess how many hours every poster here, along with every teacher everywhere worked. Getting me to attack your strawman isn’t gonna work, either, kid. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by SlyFrog > I grew up with people who did it. I know for sure. This seems to be the point where you throw down that you know for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/160 "2005-01-12T17:23:06Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > Amazing, it’s pretty easy when you change around your own statement, and then accuse someone else of breaking it. > > You still haven’t shown me where I called someone a liar. If you don’t see the difference between saying that I don’t believe all of the teachers that whine about how they are working 3000 hours per year, and calling someone (a person, calling someone out) in this thread a liar in my original post, as you stated, then once again, I pity you. Because if you don’t understand personal attacks versus generalized opinions about a group, you should try to learn the difference. Oh, I get you now. You’re one of those people (morons, I think they’re called) who think making sweeping generalizations about a group of people is somehow not insulting to individuals who are members of that group. This is an extra-ordinarily stupid idea. Allow me to explain how this works. When you say “most teachers are lying,” and I’m a teacher (which I’m not, btw), then you’ve just called me a liar. Do you understand what I’m saying, here? On reflection, I suppose you don’t. I mean, you’ve yet to display the slightest glimmer of intelligence or comprehension… Why should you start now? > [@](#): > > But feel free to keep making things up so you can pat yourself on the back. I haven’t said a single thing in this thread that isn’t directly supported by your own posts. > [@](#): > > You have quite the ego; most of your posts appear to be “Ah ha, I caught you now!” type of self-masturbatory congratulations. Considering that I more-or-less described myself in exactly this manner in my last post, this is a surprisingly weak insult. Well, again, I guess I can’t really say I’m “surprised,” can I? I suppose “characteristically” is the word I’m looking for there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175.md?page=9)