# Teachers Strike. Seriously? Teachers, feel free to chime in here. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 11, 2005, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175 "2005-01-11T05:25:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/161 "2005-01-12T19:35:52Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Allow me to explain how this works. Please do. I’d like to learn. > [@Miller](#): > > When you say “most teachers are lying,” and I’m a teacher (which I’m not, btw), then you’ve just called me a liar. Do you understand what I’m saying, here? I sure do. Not even discussing the factual truth of what you claimed I said in any sort of context, you are saying this: If Some of A = B; then A = B. Thanks teach, good learning from you. Glad you could help out a simple idiot like me. Go congratulate yourself some more for your amazing intellectual prowess and reading comprehension. I’ll just be sitting in the corner, working on my logic and learnin’. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/162 "2005-01-12T19:43:22Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > When people say they are, on a routine basis, working twice the normal amount of weekly hours, not taking holidays, etc., don’t you think that someone else might have a right to take it with a grain of salt until they see it themselves? As I already pointed out, it wasn’t until yesterday evening that anyone except you was casually throwing around the figure of 80 hours per week. And as I also said, I watch what my wife does, and I know, far better than you, how much time she puts in over the course of a given week. 60 is a pretty good estimate. > [@](#): > > When people start claiming huge hours, on average, I’m sorry, but I’m going to be critical of it. I won’t simply turn off my common sense meter. You are free to be critical of any damnfool thing you want, but you’re still fulla shit. Leastways inre the hours worked by teachers. > [@](#): > > 1. It doesn’t really matter to me if your wife works 80 hours a week. Goddamn, Sam! I already said that she doesn’t. Twice. Thrice if you count this. > [@](#): > > The point is that I do not believe that is a standard number for most teachers across the board. Again, believe what you want. You’re still just as full of shit as you were two quotes above. > [@](#): > > Of course, with the teacher’s union, the other teachers are likely to get jealous, and there won’t be any pay to those who work harder or smarter. Is **this** what you’re torqued about? That teachers have a union? As has been pointed out by several other posters here, you came into this thread with a truly asinine attitude and referred to others as liars. Well, this is the Pit, and you’re free to do that. But those others are free to tell you not only that you are so full of shit you squeak going into a turn, but that you’re wallowing in your own ignorance and that it raises quite the stink. I’m proud to count myself among them. You also claimed to know teachers, and to know for sure what their situations were. And you’re a liar about that. * * * > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > In a typical non-teaching job, people walk away from jobs they got their degrees for every day. It doesn’t automatically make them a pariah where they can’t get a job in the same field again. And yet, that is precisely what happens with teachers. > [@](#): > > If a teacher can’t walk away from one district to find better pay in another district, that tells me there is an inherent problem with the market, not a problem with the district. Terribly sorry, but I don’t recall anyone saying that your scenario was the case. As a matter of fact, my wife now works in a different district than she started in. I distinctly recall mentioning as much. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/163 "2005-01-12T19:56:55Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > Is **this** what you’re torqued about? That teachers have a union? No, but I think having a union means that teachers who put in extra time and effort and achieve good results for their students are less likely to recognize that in the form of higher salaries versus their peers. Unions are bargaining for the mass, not the achievers who are working the extra 10 hours a week. > [@GLWasteful](#): > > As has been pointed out by several other posters here, you came into this thread with a truly asinine attitude and referred to others as liars. Well, this is the Pit, and you’re free to do that. But those others are free to tell you not only that you are so full of shit you squeak going into a turn, but that you’re wallowing in your own ignorance and that it raises quite the stink. I’m proud to count myself among them. > > You also claimed to know teachers, and to know for sure what their situations were. And you’re a liar about that. You can think what you want. I came in with an aggressive attitude against the unthinking party line that teachers on average are underpaid and overworked. I stated it very aggressively and with condescension toward that theory, because I do believe the theory is a lie spread by those lobbying for teachers. Difference being, at no time have I said: “Your wife is a worthless and lazy fucking asshole who just wants to leech my money out of the tax system” because you disagree with my views and instead believe that teachers are overworked and underpaid. That’s a pretty big difference. You can call me whatever you want; it is the Pit. It’s up to you whether you want it to serve as a form of argument, or whether you truly can claim with a straight face that there is no difference. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/164 "2005-01-12T20:07:26Z")
Public school teachers are paid far too much for far too little. The fact that private school teachers are paid less and deliver a better education is proof enough. The teachers union is an immoral institution that needs to be disbanded. My mother was a teacher, and every time she whines about how hard her job was, it’s difficult to just smile along. Like most teacher’s, my mother is a wonderful woman. But like most teachers, including those here, she has no idea what hard work is. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/165 "2005-01-12T20:24:56Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > Public school teachers are paid far too much for far too little. > The fact that private school teachers are paid less and deliver a better education is proof enough. Or, if you’ve done **any** reading at all, you’d know that things like, oh, the NCLBA have hamstrung teachers and teaching-to-the-test guarantees a substandard education. There is also evidence that NCLB was a coordinated attack on the public school system in concert with voucher plans. Private school teachers aren’t inherently better, they just have more freedom in curriculum. > [@Bill H.](#): > > The teachers union is an immoral institution that needs to be disbanded. So teachers should not have any collective bargaining rights? **Why exactly** is it immoral? Do you suggest we disband all unions, or is this special? > [@Bill H.](#): > > My mother was a teacher, and every time she whines about how hard her job was, it’s difficult to just smile along. So, you think your own mother is lying and that her job isn’t hard/stressful/exhausting or whatever else she tells you? For god’s sake man, she’s your mother! If she tells you how hard her job is, the correct response is compassion, not sickly condesencion. > [@Bill H.](#): > > But like most teachers, including those here, she has no idea what hard work is. You attempting to take **SlimeFrog** ’s crown of absolute idiocy coupled with weak rhetoric and general asshoulishness? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/166 "2005-01-12T20:36:28Z")
[Heh.](http://theonion.com/infograph/index.php?issue=4102) ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/167 "2005-01-12T21:24:50Z")
**Bill H.** , I think it was right sweet of you to come in here just to take the heat off of **SlyFrog**. **Happy Lendervedder** , your link ain’t that funny. > [@](#): > > From Happy’s [link](http://theonion.com/lib/pdf.php?type=ia&cat=Infograph&img_id=2721) > > College education prerequite waived; applicants now must only meet minimum height requirement. > [@](#): > > From a [classified ad](http://www.citypaper.com/classified/browse.asp?Page=4&Class=Employment&Keyword=) in the current issue of Baltimore’s City Paper > > TEACHERS Become a teacher in Baltimore City. No experience or certification needed. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/168 "2005-01-12T21:40:42Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > I sure do. Not even discussing the factual truth of what you claimed I said in any sort of context, you are saying this: > > If Some of A = B; then > > A = B. > > Thanks teach, good learning from you. Glad you could help out a simple idiot like me. Go congratulate yourself some more for your amazing intellectual prowess and reading comprehension. I’ll just be sitting in the corner, working on my logic and learnin’. So, by way of example, if someone were to say, “Most black people are liars,” than no one individual black person has a right to be offended by that? Because there’s a chance he or she is not part of the “most” to which the speaker refers? Is that your argument? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/169 "2005-01-12T21:57:51Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Or, if you’ve done **any** reading at all, you’d know that things like, oh, the NCLBA have hamstrung teachers and teaching-to-the-test guarantees a substandard education. Not to try and horn in on the huge argument Bill H. is starting up… However, I don’t think the school system was exactly knocking the ball out of the park prior to NCLB. NCLB was a response to a system that already sucked pretty hard. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/170 "2005-01-12T22:01:35Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Not to try and horn in on the huge argument Bill H. is starting up… However, I don’t think the school system was exactly knocking the ball out of the park prior to NCLB. NCLB was a response to a system that already sucked pretty hard. The school system was not ‘knocking the ball out of the park.’ No… But NCLB is not an answer. It’s like, if you have someone who’s trying to swim, and not swimming fast enough… and then you put iron chains on him. NCLB was based on zero lit review and indeed is in direct contradiction to what over a century of research has shown us. NCLB is a very, very bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/171 "2005-01-12T22:02:52Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, by way of example, if someone were to say, “Most black people are liars,” than no one individual black person has a right to be offended by that? Because there’s a chance he or she is not part of the “most” to which the speaker refers? > > Is that your argument? No it isn’t, but thanks for once again making up your own argument instead of responding to mine. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/172 "2005-01-12T22:06:25Z")
Although I realize that certain chapters have serious problems, I don’t get what’s “immoral” about teachers’ unions as a concept or entity. ``` Here is the situation from where I stand: In the college/university system, we profs cannot cut our own deals with management. In order to have any sort of rights, grievance procedures, regulations dealing with working conditions, class loads, scheduling, part-timers' issues, benefits, salary advances, or a multitude of other matters, we need a contract. Said contract cannot exist unless it is negotiated through collective bargaining.* This does not happen without a union. That's the deal. ``` \*Try pushing a paralyzed elephant through a lake of cold molasses some time, and then you’ll have an idea of what it’s like to sit at the negotiations table hour after hour, day after day, ready to strangle the heel-draggers who sit across from you. It ain’t fun. But I don’t see any way out of it. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/173 "2005-01-12T22:06:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, by way of example, if someone were to say, “Most black people are liars,” than no one individual black person has a right to be offended by that? Because there’s a chance he or she is not part of the “most” to which the speaker refers? > > Is that your argument? By the way Miller, why do you hate black people? ---
**Author:** ![LissyLou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5daacb/32.png) [@LissyLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LissyLou)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/174 "2005-01-12T22:09:00Z")
Okay, I’m not a teacher, hell, I’m only a waitress. The only teacher I know is a person I can’t stand. **And yet** , even I can see that there is a big problem with idea that we should acquire the people who **educate our children** in the same manner that we bargain shop for toilet paper. Quality matters here. I think the biggest problem here is our skewed priorities. People willingly pay ever higher amounts for their entertainment (sports, tv, movies), and then turn around and have a cow about their taxes going towards those ‘overpaid’ teachers. Perhaps if we stopped trying to calculate what should be just ‘enough’ to get people who are at worst mediocre and at best (when we are lucky) too dedicated to leave teaching and actually tried to make teaching **financially attractive** we might make some progress. Some of you dimwits have suggested that if teachers want to do better they should try a different career. Okay, say they take you up on that offer. Say that the most gifted among them (after all, they are the ones most likely to get hired elsewhere) jump ship. WHO’S GONNA TEACH YOUR CHILDREN THEN, HUH? I have a better suggestion. Drop one of your HBO tiers and make an effort to get the best for your kids. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/175 "2005-01-12T22:13:52Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > The fact that private school teachers are paid less and deliver a better education is proof enough. **Bill** , I’m not going to go into how much of an ass your post makes you sound. This isn’t the first time you’ve done your ‘tough guy’ routine and shit on a thread, and I know it’s fair game in the Pit. But, callous as you have been, I expect better arguments than this to come out of your pie-hole. You **know** , being an educated man, that teacher salary is not the only distinction between private and public institutions, and is probably the least important in terms of student performance. And let’s not pretend that teachers are only lobbying for higher pay- more classroom aides, more enrichment programs (read: not sports), and supply budgets tend to go part and parcel with the other demands. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/176 "2005-01-12T22:20:52Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > No it isn’t, but thanks for once again making up your own argument instead of responding to mine. Then explain the difference to me. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/177 "2005-01-12T22:34:02Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Then explain the difference to me. I’ve already told you why you are wrong Miller. Attempting to explain more will do nothing. You said: > [@Miller](#): > > When you say “most teachers are lying,” and I’m a teacher (which I’m not, btw), then you’ve just called me a liar. Do you understand what I’m saying, here? This is patently false. It is demonstrably false under rules of logic. Attempting to discuss something like this further with you is pointless; if you cannot see why your statement is false, I have no obligation or desire to help you further. You do not want to learn, you do not want to debate the merits of any argument, you want to spew invective. Now if you would like me to use an example that isn’t what you originally said, and throws in something regarding gays, jews, blacks, or homosexuals, I can do that once more if it would help you to understand. It didn’t seem to help you understand the first time. You are now using some very insulting and demeaning language that a lot of people have tried to get past for a lot of years to dig yourself out of a hole that has nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/178 "2005-01-12T22:42:56Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > This is patently false. Bullshit. > [@](#): > > It is demonstrably false under rules of logic. Than demonstrate it. Try to do so in English. > [@](#): > > Attempting to discuss something like this further with you is pointless; if you cannot see why your statement is false, I have no obligation or desire to help you further. Translation: “I cannot support anything I’ve said in this thread.” > [@](#): > > You do not want to learn, you do not want to debate the merits of any argument, you want to spew invective. You say that as if they are all mutually exclusive. > [@](#): > > Now if you would like me to use an example that isn’t what you originally said, and throws in something regarding gays, jews, blacks, or homosexuals, I can do that once more if it would help you to understand. It didn’t seem to help you understand the first time. Gays _or_ homosexuals? That’s quite a range you’ve got there. Incidentally, those two sentences are total gibberish. > [@](#): > > You are now using some very insulting and demeaning language that a lot of people have tried to get past for a lot of years to dig yourself out of a hole that has nothing to do with it. Now you’re just babbling. ---
**Author:** ![Tikster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@Tikster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tikster)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/179 "2005-01-12T23:08:28Z")
I’m mostly a lurker here, but I can’t leave this thread without commenting. Pardon with me, I still have much restraint about swearing, so I censor myself, before it ever makes itself into this thread - even if it is in the pit :). **SlyFrog** I just want to chime in here and say that I read your statement in exactly the same manner as **Miller**. If you won’t explain it to him, please explain it to me: Are you really saying that someone could spew whatever racist/bigoted/whatever stuff they want, as long as they include “most” as a disclaimer? That way, anyone who gets offended clearly wasn’t intended to be included? Sorry that doesn’t fly. For the record, I am a teacher myself. I got a masters and am currently finishing my two years extra education at a high school - and all I wanna say to you people who think it’s a cushy job, is that it really isn’t. And the pay is in no way equivalent to what other people with a university degree earn. Sure, I could just get one of them jobs, but frankly, that’s not what I want to do. Heck, why drive away the people wo _want_ to teach and keep the people with bad degrees, who can’t get any other jobs than teaching (luckily it’s a low percentage in my perception)? As others have said, it’s a matter of attracting the quality teachers. If you want to be a good teacher you spend _a lot_ of time preparing for class, you spend a lot of energy worrying about your pupils and you spend a lot more time than you get paid for on it (I know I do). Can you honestly say you wouldn’t want people who care deeply being the ones who caretake the education of your offspring? Look, I’m still so young and idealistic that I’m almost prepared to say that I don’t care what kind of money I make, I’d much rather see more _respect_ for the job that we do. And judging from this thread, that’s probably not going to happen. The main picture that is painted here is that teachers are “whiners” who have chosen a “cushy” job just because we can’t really hold down a “real” job. Gee, thanks. In reality, what would make teachers be more respected? You got it, if the wages were higher - aka the job was financially attractive - it’d be in higher regard in the general population. Just my two (not too highjacking I think) cents. - Tikster, who apologises if her english is not too good. ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175/180 "2005-01-12T23:14:25Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > By the way Miller, why do you hate black people? If that was a whoosh (even though I don’t think it is), I gotta say “heh.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teachers-strike-seriously-teachers-feel-free-to-chime-in-here/284175.md?page=10)