# Team Bush and "Best Info Available @ the Time" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/team-bush-and-best-info-available-the-time/297926 "2005-04-05T22:09:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/team-bush-and-best-info-available-the-time/297926/101 "2005-04-15T21:13:42Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > If I challenge your contention that there was an intelligence agency consensus that Saddam was unlikely to attack, would you provide a source? From the OP: ( [the probability of Hussein initiating an attack in the foreseeable future is low](http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2002/10/dci100702.html) ) > [@pervert](#): > > What I have been trying to get across, is that this is true going by the letter of international law (whatever that means). Intl law aside, it’s so by a matter of definition. It’s what the term means. > [@pervert](#): > > You mean he did not use the best international law information? No. Intl law has very little (if anything at all) to do with point I’m making. I’m saying that the terms used by Team Bush to sell the invasion did not fit with what the US intel community’s assessment was. > [@pervert](#): > > No, I am contending that you guys are clinging to a definition of imminent which is explicitly known. It could be many months, as long as we know for a certainty that it is inevitable. The time frame is less important, I think to your use of the word, than the certainty. There needs to be a reasonable certainty that it’s about to come to pass. > [@pervert](#): > > Just to check ourselves, If we had evidence that aQ had WMD in 1995, we would not have been justified in attacking them or those who harbored them. Correct? Let me ask you in all seriousness. If we had had intelligence in 1995 that aQ had some WMD and Clinton had ordered an invasion of Afghanistan in order to stop its being used against America or her allies, and given that he may not have had specific intelligence regarding aQ’s intentions for their WMD, would you have condemned such an attack as not allowed under the terms of preemptive war? It depends, did Clinton try to sell it as preemptive war or as some other thing? If he tried to sell it as something other than preemptive war, then there would be no point in bringing up the preemptive war issue. In the case in point, TB brought up the preemption issue. If they had sold the war as something other than preemption, then preemptive war issue would be moot. Please understand that I’m not trying to make the case here that the invasion wasn’t a case of preemptive war and therefore wrong. (This seems to be the argument you’re rebutting.) Instead, I’m saying that TB invoked preemptive war when there was not an imminent attack to preempt. I’m not addressing the rightness/wrongness of the invasion in and of itself on this point. I’m solely addressing the case made for the invasion. The case was not based on the best info available at the time. > [@pervert](#): > > Please try to answer this. I am not trying to trap you with an irrelevant hypothetical. I am trying to understand your position regarding the conditions necessary for a justified first strike. As I noted above, these conditions are pretty much irrelevant to the point at hand which is about the sales pitch made for war rather than the actual conditions necessary. If TB had made a case that invoked something other than preemptive war, then this issue would not exist. Without an imminent threat, a war cannot be preemptive. **It may be justified, but it’s not preemptive.** > [@pervert](#): > > Am I misunderstanding the meaning of “imminent” if I say that when a person is born his death is imminent? Yes, you are. His death may be inevitable, but, barring special yet unspecified circumstances, his death would not be considered “about to occur.” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/team-bush-and-best-info-available-the-time/297926/102 "2005-04-16T09:12:33Z")
**elucidator** : > [@](#): > > - They already have names. Anger, Lust, Envy, Sarcasm…\* Lust is not a fault. It’s a blessing. Especially at your age. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/team-bush-and-best-info-available-the-time/297926/103 "2005-04-16T12:38:03Z")
> [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > **elucidator** : > > > [@](#): > > > > They already have names. Anger, Lust, Envy, Sarcasm… > > Lust is not a fault. It’s a blessing. > > Especially at your age. A Wonder of the Ancient World perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/team-bush-and-best-info-available-the-time/297926/104 "2005-04-16T14:32:52Z")
You fantacize, I reminisce. Eat your hearts out. And get off my lawn. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/team-bush-and-best-info-available-the-time/297926/105 "2005-04-17T02:14:44Z")
[Newly Declassified Intelligence Documents on Iraq-al Qaeda Relationship](http://levin.senate.gov/newsroom/release.cfm?id=236440) The CIA called bullshit on the Prague meet between Mohammed Atta and Iraqi officials way back in January 2003. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/team-bush-and-best-info-available-the-time/297926/106 "2005-04-18T13:09:08Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [Newly Declassified Intelligence Documents on Iraq-al Qaeda Relationship](http://levin.senate.gov/newsroom/release.cfm?id=236440) > > The CIA called bullshit on the Prague meet between Mohammed Atta and Iraqi officials way back in January 2003. How interesting. It manages to be totally expected yet new at the same time. I’m glad that Levin decided to bring this to our attention. I expect that there’s much more ofthis sort of stuff where that came from. The SSCI (Senate Select Committee on Intelligence) has decided to make noises like they may still release the second report on the pre-war intel re Iraq, the one that focused on the _ **use** _ of the intel by our politicians. See this [transcript](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7452510/). Those of you unfamiliar with the SSCI reports there’s this introductory thread **[Put an End to the Well-Founded Rumors Surrounding GWB Admin’s Use of Intel re Iraq](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=242238)**. However, compare the original ‘terms of reference’ for the second report with the t of r from the MtP transcript: [Original Terms of Reference for the second SSCI report re Iraq intel](http://roberts.senate.gov/02-13-2004.htm) : **B**. the collection of intelligence on Iraq from the end of the Gulf War to the commencement of Operation Iraqi Freedom; **C**. whether public statements and reports and testimony regarding Iraq by U.S. Government officials made between the Gulf War period and the commencement of Operation Iraqi Freedom were substantiated by intelligence information; **D**. the postwar findings about Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction and weapons programs and links to terrorism and how they compare with prewar assessments; **E**. prewar intelligence assessments about postwar Iraq; **F**. any intelligence activities relating to Iraq conducted by the Policy Counterterrorism Evaluation Group (PCTEG) and the Office of Special Plans within the Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Policy; and **G**. the use by the Intelligence Community of information provided by the Iraqi National Congress (INC). [Meet the Press 2005-04-10](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7452510/): **SEN. ROBERTS** :… There are **three** [??] phases to phase two. One is to compare the public statements by the administration on all public officials, including the Congress, with the intelligence matrix that we have. … One is the Office of Special Plans under the Department of Defense. Now, we’ve had a statement basically saying that some of the activities may have been illegal. Everybody down there got a lawyer. … And finally, there’s the prewar intelligence on the postwar insurgency in Iraq. … A close reading of the interview will let one notice what was emphasized -that intel estimates were flawed- and what was not -the roles of the [Office of Special Plans (OSP)](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=199309&page=1&pp=50), Policy Counter Terrorism Evaluation Group (PCTEG), Iraqi National Congress (INC), et al. Wish us members of the US electorate luck in being allowed to see the bottom of this. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/team-bush-and-best-info-available-the-time/297926/107 "2005-04-19T15:38:42Z")
Too bad **Mr Moto** hasn’t cared to comment. This thread was inspired by his contention after all. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/team-bush-and-best-info-available-the-time/297926/108 "2005-04-19T18:29:01Z")
He’s admitted to lurking in this thread elsewhere on the SDMB, but doesn’t bother to reply. Things that make you go _hmmmmmmmmmm…_ ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/team-bush-and-best-info-available-the-time/297926/109 "2005-04-20T15:17:16Z")
I suppose it’s resolved then. Fair enough. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/team-bush-and-best-info-available-the-time/297926.md?page=5)