# Technically speaking, is a cathedral a church? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 15, 2017, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644 "2017-05-15T13:05:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644/21 "2017-05-15T21:37:11Z")
Kind of neat that cathedral as noun post-dates its use as adjective. OED also tells me that mods can be described, at times, as a bit cathedrarian. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644/22 "2017-05-15T21:56:23Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Kind of neat that cathedral as noun post-dates its use as adjective. That’s because the church was first referred to as a “cathedral church”, and later shortened to just “cathedral”. The adjective “cathedral” was derived from the Latin word “cathedra”, which referred to the bishop’s chair. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644/23 "2017-05-15T21:58:13Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Ah. > > Their cousins, however, rooks, are equally political and more democratic: rather than a bishopric, they have a parliament. Their individual homes, however, are shared with an elephant. Say Good Knight, Leo. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644/24 "2017-05-15T22:00:12Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > That’s because the church was first referred to as a “cathedral church”, and later shortened to just “cathedral”. The adjective “cathedral” was derived from the Latin word “cathedra”, which referred to the bishop’s chair. They get a church, a chair, and a fancy hat? Some people have all the luck. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644/25 "2017-05-15T22:10:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Say Good Knight, Leo. _[Trump: Mexico is ‘using the pope as a pawn’](https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/trump-mexico-is-using-the-pope-as-a-pawn/2016/02/18/29c5ddee-d668-11e5-a65b-587e721fb231_video.html)_ Washington post headline. (with lc “pope” …In an ongoing argument with Donald Trump, the pope stated; “Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as ‘animal politicus.’ So at least I am a human person,” he said. “As to whether I am a pawn, well, maybe, I don’t know. I’ll leave that up to your judgment and that of the people.” … [“Christian truther” cite/sit](https://christiantruther.com/christian/pope-francis-pawn-elite/)e, so don’t click them unless you have to; trust me. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644/26 "2017-05-16T01:03:42Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean by “a third order of clergy”, but in the RCC being named a Bishop is not an additional taking or orders or a new Sacrament, as being ordained a Priest is. It’s a matter of administration and organization (those who aren’t given a diocese are usually given a task or a specific flock that’s not linked to a place; the military orders would sometimes get their own bishops, for example, and there are military bishops\*), not a different sacrament or a different order. Bishops are consecrated but not ordained (well, they’re ordained as priests; they’re not ordained as bishops). The Bishop of Rome is also consecrated Bishop of Rome and Pontifex; not ordained Bishop or Pontifex. No, Bishops are one of the three orders: deacons, priests and bishops. Bishops have the fullest sacramental authority. [Holy Orders](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_orders) > [@](#): > > In the Christian churches, Holy Orders are ordained ministries such as bishop, priest or deacon. In the Roman Catholic (Latin: sacri ordines), Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox (ιερωσύνη [hierōsynē], ιεράτευμα [hierateuma], Священство [Svyashchenstvo]), Oriental Orthodox, Anglican, Assyrian, Old Catholic, Independent Catholic and some Lutheran churches, **holy orders is comprised is the three ministerial orders of bishop, priest and deacon, or the sacrament or rite by which candidates are ordained to those orders.** Except for Lutherans and some Anglicans, these churches regard ordination as a sacrament (the sacramentum ordinis). The Anglo-Catholic tradition within Anglicanism identifies more with the Roman Catholic position about the sacramental nature of ordination. [Holy Orders in the Catholic Church](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_orders_in_the_Catholic_Church) > [@](#): > > **The Sacrament of Holy Orders in the Catholic Church includes three orders: bishop, priest, and deacon**. In the phrase “Holy Orders”, the word “holy” simply means “set apart for some purpose.” The word “order” designates an established civil body or corporation with a hierarchy, and ordination means legal incorporation into an order. In context, therefore, a group with a hierarchical structure that is set apart for ministry in the Church The [appointment of a Catholic bishop](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appointment_of_Catholic_bishops) to a particular diocesan or other administrative function is a separate matter. One must first be ordained a bishop, and then after that can be appointed to a particular diocese or other function. Once ordained as a bishop, there is no need to re-ordain if the bishop is translated to a different diocese or function: > [@](#): > > The appointment of bishops in the Catholic Church is a complicated process. Outgoing bishops, neighbouring bishops, the faithful, the apostolic nuncio, various members of the Roman Curia, and the pope all have a role in the selection. The exact process varies based upon a number of factors, including whether the bishop is from the Latin Church or one of the Eastern Catholic Churches, the geographic location of the diocese, what office the candidate is being chosen to fill, **and whether the candidate has previously been ordained to the episcopate**. With respect to the Pope, you don’t have to be a bishop, priest or deacon to be elected Pope, because Pope and Bishop of Rome are offices within the Church, not ordained positions. It hasn’t happened for centuries, and most popes have already been bishops. However, [if the papal conclave elects a lay person](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_conclave#Acceptance_and_proclamation), that person must be ordained deacon, then priest, then bishop. If the College elects a priest as pope, that person must be ordained as a bishop. That ordination is a separate function from the process of being installed in the office of Pope and Bishop of Rome. > [@](#): > > If he accepts, and is already a bishop, he immediately takes office. If he is not a bishop, however, he must be first consecrated as one before he can assume office. If a priest is elected, the Cardinal Dean consecrates him bishop; if a layman is elected, then the Cardinal Dean first ordains him deacon, then priest, and only then consecrates him as bishop. **Only after becoming a bishop does the pope-elect take office**. These functions of the Dean are assumed, if necessary, by the sub-Dean, and if the sub-Dean is also impeded, they are assumed by the senior cardinal-bishop in attendance. The status of being a Bishop is life-long. Former Pope Benedict no longer holds any office in the Catholic Church. He is nonetheless a bishop, but no longer Bishop of Rome, which is an office, not an ordained position. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644/27 "2017-05-16T01:34:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Separate from this, a bishop may also be named as bishop of some particular diocese, such as the Pope being the Bishop of Rome. But even if a bishop retires from the administration of a diocese (as, for instance, Benedict XVI retired from being Bishop of Rome), he’s still a bishop, because he’s been ordained as such. I think a bishop (at least in the Roman Catholic church) actually _must_ be named as bishop of a diocese. Since there are many more bishops, once you count all the auxiliary bishops, department heads in the Curia, papal nuncios, and so on, the Church names such bishops titular bishops, i.e., bishop of a non-functioning, defunct diocese, often located somewhere where there are no Catholics, or Christians of any kind, at all. A titular bishop might be the Bishop of Mecca (OK, I’m just making that one up), for example. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644/28 "2017-05-16T01:47:56Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > _[Trump: Mexico is ‘using the pope as a pawn’](https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/trump-mexico-is-using-the-pope-as-a-pawn/2016/02/18/29c5ddee-d668-11e5-a65b-587e721fb231_video.html)_ > Washington post headline. (with lc “pope” > > …In an ongoing argument with Donald Trump, the pope stated; “Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as ‘animal politicus.’ So at least I am a human person,” he said. “As to whether I am a pawn, well, maybe, I don’t know. I’ll leave that up to your judgment and that of the people.” … > > [“Christian truther” cite/sit](https://christiantruther.com/christian/pope-francis-pawn-elite/)e, so don’t click them unless you have to; trust me. Rather ironical considering the Mexican State’s bloody-handed persecution of Catholicism through the 20th century. Taking a railway excursion and seeing rotting bodies dangling from the telegraph poles one after the other probably made a number of we super-sensitive people put away our sandwiches for later. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644/29 "2017-05-16T01:49:03Z")
Way to bring down a joke ladder… ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644/30 "2017-05-16T02:13:23Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > No, Bishops are one of the three orders: deacons, priests and bishops. Bishops have the fullest sacramental authority. > > [Holy Orders](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_orders) In Spanish we use different words. Guess we’d have to go to the Latin, as that’s the official version. > [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > I think a bishop (at least in the Roman Catholic church) actually _must_ be named as bishop of a diocese. Nope. Auxiliary bishops are not the bishops of a see (and bishop auxiliaries aren’t bishops, and my apologies if I’m messing up the English nomenclature), or they can be bishops of a flock that doesn’t have a specific see (cf. military bishops), or they can be given a different kind of task (such as a position in one of the Colleges), or nothing at all. The last is unlikely, since they normally get made bishops in order to cover a vacancy, but the vacancy doesn’t have to be as head of a diocese. Me bad on St Basil. Would St Sophia count as a cathedral, pre-mosquization, or does that one also happen to be a bad translation? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644/31 "2017-05-16T02:23:17Z")
In a bit of ecclesiastical oddity, St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome is NOT a cathedral, believe it or not. The Pope’s cathedra (the literal chair) as the Bishop of Rome is in St. John Lateran, which is a extraterritorial bit of the Holy See across Rome, where the Popes used to live pre-Avignon. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644/32 "2017-05-16T02:30:10Z")
Call it what name you like, but the making of a priest into a bishop is an application of the same sacrament as the making of a deacon into a priest, or of a layman into a deacon. That much is going to be the same for Catholics of any language. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644/33 "2017-05-16T02:40:25Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Nope. Auxiliary bishops are not the bishops of a see (and bishop auxiliaries aren’t bishops, and my apologies if I’m messing up the English nomenclature), or they can be bishops of a flock that doesn’t have a specific see (cf. military bishops), or they can be given a different kind of task (such as a position in one of the Colleges), or nothing at all. The last is unlikely, since they normally get made bishops in order to cover a vacancy, but the vacancy doesn’t have to be as head of a diocese. I think I’m right, although I’m certainly open to correction. For example, in my own diocese, we have several auxiliary bishops. There’s Bishop Octavio Cisneros, who is the titular bishop of Eanach Dúin. There’s Bishop James Massa, who is titular bishop of Bardstown. Bishop Witold Mroziewski is the titular bishop of Walla Walla. Bishop Paul Sanchez is titular bishop of Coeliana (wherever that is). Bishop Guy Sansaricq is titular bishop of Glenndálocha, which is one of the most beautiful places in the world, but it’s very far indeed from Brooklyn. Bishop Rene Valero is retired now, but he was the titular bishop of Vicus Turris. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644/34 "2017-05-16T02:51:30Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > I think I’m right, although I’m certainly open to correction. > > For example, in my own diocese, we have several auxiliary bishops. > > There’s Bishop Octavio Cisneros, who is the titular bishop of Eanach Dúin. > > There’s Bishop James Massa, who is titular bishop of Bardstown. > > Bishop Witold Mroziewski is the titular bishop of Walla Walla. > > Bishop Paul Sanchez is titular bishop of Coeliana (wherever that is). > > Bishop Guy Sansaricq is titular bishop of Glenndálocha, which is one of the most beautiful places in the world, but it’s very far indeed from Brooklyn. > > Bishop Rene Valero is retired now, but he was the titular bishop of Vicus Turris. Nitpick: He’s still the titular bishop of Vicus Turris (which is in Tunisia). And, since you ask, Coeliana was in the Roman province of Numidia, in modern Algeria. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644/35 "2017-05-16T03:13:49Z")
**Nava** , it’s not just a difference in vocabulary between different languages, but of sacramental status versus administrative functions. For instance, only a bishop can perform the sacrament of [Holy Orders](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacraments_of_the_Catholic_Church#Holy_Orders): > [@](#): > > Holy Orders is the sacrament by which a man is made a bishop, a priest, or a deacon, and thus dedicated to be an image of Christ. The three degrees are referred to as the episcopate, the presbyterate and the diaconate.[31] **A bishop is the minister of this sacrament**. Ordination as a bishop confers the fullness of the sacrament, making the bishop a member of the body of successors of the Apostles, and giving him the mission to teach, sanctify, and govern, along with the care of all the Churches. Priests and deacons cannot perform the sacrament of Holy Orders. That’s one of the marks that the order of bishop is not just an administrative one: only a bishop can perform that particular sacrament. In English, the term “bishop” can certainly have two meanings: a person who is ordained as a bishop, and the description of an office held by a bishop: the Bishop of Someplace. But that dual meaning to the word “bishop” doesn’t mean that “bishop” is only an administrative position. Only a person who is ordained as a bishop (i.e. received the sacrament of Holy Orders making him a bishop) can be appointed the Bishop of Someplace. There’s similar usage for priests. A person who is ordained a priest may not be attached to any parish. Or, a priest could be the priest-in-charge of a parish: i.e., a person who has been ordained a priest may hold an office that only a priest can hold. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644/36 "2017-05-16T06:04:02Z")
Yeah, but in Spanish we do not speak of bishops as being “ordained” as bishop, and the lists of which positions constitute “orders” varies depending on who you ask (in English too). The list quoted above includes “deacons, presbyters and bishops”, others still use the division in “major” and “minor” orders. One of the reasons being given to fully and officially open the deaconate to women is that “the other minor orders are held by women all the time”, and that’s in clerical circles. Do you have the official Catechism handy? I don’t and I need to leave for work. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644/37 "2017-05-16T06:34:37Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Yeah, but in Spanish we do not speak of bishops as being “ordained” as bishop, and the lists of which positions constitute “orders” varies depending on who you ask (in English too). The list quoted above includes “deacons, presbyters and bishops”, others still use the division in “major” and “minor” orders. One of the reasons being given to fully and officially open the deaconate to women is that “the other minor orders are held by women all the time”, and that’s in clerical circles. > > Do you have the official Catechism handy? I don’t and I need to leave for work. Para 1554: "III. THE THREE DEGREES OF THE SACRAMENT OF HOLY ORDERS 1554 "The divinely instituted ecclesiastical ministry is exercised in different degrees by those who even from ancient times have been called bishops, priests, and deacons."32 Catholic doctrine, expressed in the liturgy, the Magisterium, and the constant practice of the Church, recognizes that there are two degrees of ministerial participation in the priesthood of Christ: the episcopacy and the presbyterate . The diaconate is intended to help and serve them. For this reason the term sacerdos in current usage denotes bishops and priests but not deacons. Yet Catholic doctrine teaches that the degrees of priestly participation (episcopate and presbyterate) and the degree of service (diaconate) are all three conferred by a sacramental act called “ordination,” that is, by the sacrament of Holy Orders . . " Furthermore, from para 1557: “The Second Vatican Council “teaches . . . that the fullness of the sacrament of Holy Orders is conferred by episcopal consecration, that fullness namely which, both in the liturgical tradition of the Church and the language of the Fathers of the Church, is called the high priesthood, the acme (summa) of the sacred ministry.”” ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644/38 "2017-05-16T06:48:54Z")
Brushing up on local Catholic history, “consecrated” seems more common than “ordained” for the ceremony that makes one a Bishop; both are used. Houston has a _Co-Cathedral_–the [Co-Cathedral of the Sacred Heart](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-Cathedral_of_the_Sacred_Heart_(Houston)). We’re\* part of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston. Galveston’s [St Mary’s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Mary_Cathedral_Basilica_(Galveston,_Texas)) Cathedral came first–it’s considered the “mother church” for Texas Catholics and has been named a Cathedral Basilica because of its age. San Antonio’s [San Fernando Cathedral](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Archdiocese_of_San_Antonio) was founded as a church in the 18th century but did not become a cathedral until San Antonio’s diocese was split from the original Texas diocese based in Galveston. It’s been massively rebuilt over the years. - “We” because, although I’m long-lapsed, I was pleased when Bishop DiNardo was promoted to Archbishop & even more pleased when he became a Cardinal. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644/39 "2017-05-16T07:29:22Z")
Merci, UDS. I never meant that the reference was wrong, only that it wasn’t something I was used to hearing. Sorry if that wasn’t clear, which given the hour I suspect it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644/40 "2017-05-16T09:02:47Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > See query. By “technical,” I assume in the language of designations by the Catholics. The word Cathederal came from latin and greek for a type of seat. Something akin t a directors chair but perhaps its a large throne that is movable because the bishop is there to use it sometimes, and other times isn’t there. The bishop would usually only be a guest at parish churches. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technically-speaking-is-a-cathedral-a-church/786644.md?page=3)