# Technology: fastest and slowest in evolving **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 15, 2005, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868 "2005-09-15T22:41:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868/21 "2005-09-19T06:55:14Z")
**Chopsticks**. They have been around for about 5,000 years, completely unchanged. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868/22 "2005-09-19T07:03:21Z")
> [@SHAKES](#): > > Toilet Paper! How can one improve on this idea? Higher absorbency, I guess. Tissues in general haven’t changed much, or handkerchiefs. You can put them in boxes, and they make them with aloe now, but that’s it as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868/23 "2005-09-19T12:36:17Z")
The bicycle must be in the frame for slowest evolving technology, fundamentally unchanged since John Starley invented the Rover safety bicycle in 1878 ([some details here](http://www.fathom.com/feature/122098/) ). Two wheels the same size, diamond-shaped frame and pneumatic tyres. Its a bike you could ride around town today. You could also make a case for the pneumatic tyre, on motor vehicles or bicycles as a fundamentally unchanged technological concept. Obviously materials have undergone vast improvements, but its still the same basic rim, tyre and air idea. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868/24 "2005-09-19T14:15:26Z")
> [@SHAKES](#): > > Toilet Paper! How can one improve on this idea? > > I’m still waiting on the three sea shells myself. > > (Bonus points for who ever gets the sea shell reference.) Demolition Man for the sea shells and George from Sienfeld for the toilet paper. And as Jerry pointed out, they have become more softer, they come with more sheets per roll and in variety of colors. The slowest improving technology is in hand guns. The Browning 1911 is better than most guns today and as **Shagnasty** said, so is the Colt 1911. The fastest improving technology should be the one that is in most demand. Necessaty is the mother of all inventions remember. So I would say cars and computers. Every year there is something different. Nothing too drastic, but a very significant improvement. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868/25 "2005-09-19T14:22:55Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > **Chopsticks**. They have been around for about 5,000 years, completely unchanged. Whoa. Dude, I was thinking I had everybody beat by saying “Hammers haven’t changed much since they started making them out of iron”, but that’s pre-Bronze age… you win! ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868/26 "2005-09-19T14:27:16Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > **Chopsticks**. They have been around for about 5,000 years, completely unchanged. They have the ones with the rubber band on them for easier use. So they changed a little. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868/27 "2005-09-19T14:35:49Z")
> [@Beware of Doug](#): > > By and by different competing key systems evolved in France and Germany (everybody but Germany now uses the French system). Funny–with bassoons it’s exactly the opposite: Everyone but the French use the German system. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868/28 "2005-09-19T15:37:41Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > They have the ones with the rubber band on them for easier use. So they changed a little. 😕 How would that make them easier to use? How hard are they, anyway? I’m about as white as you can get, and I picked up the skill at age 5 in about 30 seconds. The slowest evolving technology might just be the club. All we did was make the policeman’s baton out of unbreakable material instead of wood (although riot batons are still wodden, I believe.) ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868/29 "2005-09-19T16:40:19Z")
> [@Myler Keogh](#): > > The bicycle must be in the frame for slowest evolving technology, fundamentally unchanged since John Starley invented the Rover safety bicycle in 1878 ([some details here](http://www.fathom.com/feature/122098/) ). Two wheels the same size, diamond-shaped frame and pneumatic tyres… But the Rover didn’t even have pneumatic tires, let alone a gear shift. Many modern bikes have 3x9 gears, with indexed shifting (gear shifter clicks into each gear). And modern bikes have evolved beyond same-size wheel and diamond-shaped frames, except in races that insist on standardized bikes (e.g. Tour de France). The [Burrows/Lotus monocoque racer](http://www.lotusespritworld.co.uk/LotusModels/LotusSportBike.html) is a radical departure, and the [Velokraft racer](http://www.velokraft.com/-vk2.htm) doesn’t even have the same riding position as “traditional” bikes, nor same-size wheels. And world human-power speed records are held by [streamlined bicycles](http://speed101.com/gallery/). ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868/30 "2005-09-19T17:27:34Z")
Right now, data storage technology is a pretty quickly-evolving science. In the last 25 years, we’ve gone from [5 megabytes](http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_term/0,2542,t=ST506&i=51951,00.asp) in a thick novel for thousands of dollars, to [tens of gigabytes](http://store.yahoo.com/impactcomputersmiami/2t989.html) in a stack of credit cards for hundreds of dollars. I’ve heard anecdotal stories about the systems-engineering teams that work for Western Digital and Seagate that work three shifts around the world (for example, LA, Tokyo, and Berlin) and have “hand-off” meetings every eight hours to discuss progress on getting the next model to market. The designs evolve so quickly that a single time-zone team would not be able to keep up. CPU speed and RAM sizes have been moving pretty quickly, too. ---
**Author:** ![VenusProbe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e495f1/32.png) [@VenusProbe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VenusProbe)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868/31 "2005-09-19T17:38:23Z")
> [@SHAKES](#): > > Toilet Paper! How can one improve on this idea? > > I’m still waiting on the three sea shells myself. > > (Bonus points for who ever gets the sea shell reference.) squeezibly soft, 2 plys, giant roll, perforations, scented, quilted, prints, colors… Demolition Man. (suddenly I have a craving for Taco Bell) ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868/32 "2005-09-19T18:18:21Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > And modern bikes have evolved beyond same-size wheel and diamond-shaped frames, except in races that insist on standardized bikes (e.g. Tour de France). The [Burrows/Lotus monocoque racer](http://www.lotusespritworld.co.uk/LotusModels/LotusSportBike.html) is a radical departure, and the [Velokraft racer](http://www.velokraft.com/-vk2.htm) doesn’t even have the same riding position as “traditional” bikes, nor same-size wheels. And world human-power speed records are held by [streamlined bicycles](http://speed101.com/gallery/). What cobblers you speak, my friend. The overwhelming majority of the bicycles used the world over by people travelling around have the diamond shaped frame (albeit with a seat tube), upright riding position and equal-sized wheels pioneered in Starley’s design. The specialist design innovations inherent to a time-trial bike, or a bike designed to break a human-power speed record are utterly peripheral to the “modern bikes” used day-to-day by millions of people. If it ain’t broke, make a velokraft racer. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868/33 "2005-09-20T02:30:25Z")
I’m rather disappointed that nobody has yet come up with the definitive answer for slowest-evolving technology: The mousetrap You’ll have to excuse me now, there appears to be a large multitude beating a path to my door… ---
**Author:** ![MisterThyristor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecccb3/32.png) [@MisterThyristor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MisterThyristor)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868/34 "2005-09-20T10:50:08Z")
> [@Jurph](#): > > Right now, data storage technology is a pretty quickly-evolving science. In the last 25 years, we’ve gone from [5 megabytes](http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_term/0,2542,t=ST506&i=51951,00.asp) in a thick novel for thousands of dollars, to [tens of gigabytes](http://store.yahoo.com/impactcomputersmiami/2t989.html) in a stack of credit cards for hundreds of dollars. > > I’ve heard anecdotal stories about the systems-engineering teams that work for Western Digital and Seagate that work three shifts around the world (for example, LA, Tokyo, and Berlin) and have “hand-off” meetings every eight hours to discuss progress on getting the next model to market. The designs evolve so quickly that a single time-zone team would not be able to keep up. > > CPU speed and RAM sizes have been moving pretty quickly, too. To incorporate all of this – CPU speed, RAM size, data storage – just think IC chip density (Moore’s Law). Moore’s law basically says that chip density (the number of transistors in a given space) will double approximately every 18 months. This affects the amount of storage in a given space as well as the speed (the closer together the transistors are, the less distance the electrons have to travel and the faster they work). Moore’s Law just recently celebrated its 40th anniversary, so this has been steady and consistent for the last 40 years. What other technology consistently does this? ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868/35 "2005-09-20T11:13:08Z")
> [@MisterThyristor](#): > > To incorporate all of this – CPU speed, RAM size, data storage – just think IC chip density (Moore’s Law). Moore’s law basically says that chip density (the number of transistors in a given space) will double approximately every 18 months. This affects the amount of storage in a given space as well as the speed (the closer together the transistors are, the less distance the electrons have to travel and the faster they work). > > Moore’s Law just recently celebrated its 40th anniversary, so this has been steady and consistent for the last 40 years. > > What other technology consistently does this? Nitpick: CPU speed and RAM size are governed by IC density, but not data storage. Data storage is mostly a tough materials science problem (getting the media to hold individual bit changes) and a series of very tricky mechanical engineering problems (fast and accurate read/write head movement). There is the matter of the controller circuitry that’s built-in, and the amount of RAM cache you can put in a hard drive, but those are side problems and only really affect the size of the end unit during the five big form-factor changes. I want to say that data storage has come close to beating Moore’s Law, but I don’t know which variable you’d measure: bits per cubic centimeter, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868/36 "2005-09-20T11:46:34Z")
This isn’t going to win, but I’ve always been fascinated at how cars basically have the same form. Sure, technologically they are completely unrecognisably improved, but in basic shape: Four wheels, one at each corner; Engine at the front; Storage at the back; Rear-wheel-drive; Driver to one side, passenger to the other; Gears, handbrake, windscreen wipers, mirror; All basically unchanged. Sure, there have been cars made sometimes that don’t have those things, but it always comes back to the same classic design. Don’t change what works so well. ---
**Author:** ![MisterThyristor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecccb3/32.png) [@MisterThyristor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MisterThyristor)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868/37 "2005-09-21T09:46:38Z")
> [@Jurph](#): > > Nitpick: CPU speed and RAM size are governed by IC density, but not data storage. Data storage is mostly a tough materials science problem (getting the media to hold individual bit changes) and a series of very tricky mechanical engineering problems (fast and accurate read/write head movement). There is the matter of the controller circuitry that’s built-in, and the amount of RAM cache you can put in a hard drive, but those are side problems and only really affect the size of the end unit during the five big form-factor changes. > > I want to say that data storage has come close to beating Moore’s Law, but I don’t know which variable you’d measure: bits per cubic centimeter, maybe? When I said “data storage”, I was thinking of things like flash RAM, not magnetic storage media. But there is a relative to Moore’s Law relating to magnetic storage called “Kryder’s Law”. (Check out the Scientific American article [here.](http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=30&articleID=000B0C22-0805-12D8-BDFD83414B7F0000)) Basically, magnetic storage is increasing in density even faster than IC transistor density, from 2kbits to 100gbits in a square inch in the time from 1956 to today. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868/38 "2005-09-21T14:42:53Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > **Chopsticks**. They have been around for about 5,000 years, completely unchanged. Might be more a function of the culture in question than the tech. Forks and spoons are a lot more efficient. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868/39 "2005-09-21T16:20:21Z")
The Romans used cement 2,000 years ago that’s still holding up building, portions of aqueducts and whatnot. They even had cement that would cure underwater, making bridge construction and so forth a lot more effective. [M. Python mode]But other than that, what have they done for us? [M. Python mode] ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868/40 "2005-09-21T19:23:14Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Forks and spoons are a lot more efficient [than chopsticks]. How are they more efficient? How do you measure the “efficiency” of eating utensils anyway? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/technology-fastest-and-slowest-in-evolving/321868.md?page=3)