Ah, that makes sense. I could even see it being a wider proposal, with the drawbacks that I noted; I’m not saying that the drawbacks are fatal. If the choice is between very limited word-processing and Open Office, I strongly suspect OO would be the best choice. (I really need to load it up and play around with it.)
mswas, burn! 
Daniel
Left Hand of Dorkness The differences between Open Office and MS Office are negligible. You can use both if you can use one and the adaptation curve is infinitesimally slim. The shortcuts are the same, but when they aren’t it’s not a crazy difference it’s a matter of pressing the function key instead of the control key and other such differences. Also, if schools make Open Office their standard, then so will the rest of society.
Downloading it now. I’m not convinced that schools will set the trend for the rest of society–in the nineties, IIRC, Macs dominated public schools due to some savvy marketing decisions, but they’re still a minority in the workplace. But that’s like a hijack of a hijack, so I’ll leave it by saying you may be right :). Thanks for the info on OO!
And that is what I was saying is the essence of the problem. One of the only solutions, I think, is to recognize that some people just aren’t cut out for higher education and that they should be put on different “tracks” so that they’ll actually be prepared for what they’ll be doing in life instead of just failing out and finding whatever job they can.
Valete,
Vox Imperatoris
Well Macs were more expensive, OO is cheaper. 
But that’s all I have to say. The version of Open Office I use is called NeoOffice, it’s for Mac.
I think I read this book.
Interesting. Tell me, what do you mean by higher education?
Because I have two brothers - one of them is the teacher I mentioned before. The other one found out after high school that college wasn’t for him, at least not at that point in his life. He completed a stint in the Navy, then got into a training program that set him up to train as a millwright - he’s now a journeyman and close to being a master in his chosen field.
Which of my brothers do you think makes more money?
Graduating from high school will qualify you for very little in life - hell, the same can be said for graduating college if that’s all you do. And just because high school guidance counselors have become conditioned to push as many people as possible into college doesn’t mean your local plumber doesn’t know an awful lot, or that he doesn’t make a good living doing what he does.
One of the TV shows I like to watch with my kids is called Dirty Jobs - it shows a guy going around the country visiting people in their difficult workplaces and seeing what they do. Now, this show really works well, for a lot of reasons - the host seems to like the people he visits and always comes to appreciate how hard their jobs are, he gets across how important these jobs are to the rest of us (whether it is repairing sewage pumps or picking cranberries) and it makes my kids think - that job might look hard but fun. Other jobs don’t look fun. And working hard now could give them better choices later in life.
In any case, I think they should have that choice - same as you and me and my brother and the guys on that show. The problem with some other countries is that kids are shoehorned early into one track or another - and God help you if your talents or your mind changes later.
One of the strengths of our system is that there is a freedom to fail. People should be encouraged to try sometimes, even if they do fail. The alternative is never truly learning where their talents are.
My brother is happy as a millwright - he likely would be less happy as one were he prevented from going to college. He’s convinced that all of what happened led him to his path. Perhaps so. Certainly it is better that he thinks he was led to it than he goes through life thinking he was kept from it.
I think what shallora was trying to say is that attendance, homework, and overall discipline are huge factors that change the situation by orders of magnitude. Computers, as might be used today, change the situation by maybe 20%. That’s the important point.
No, the “two solutions” was my criticism. There is a third solution. Force the fucking kids to sit fucking still and do their fucking homework! This is the point Left Hand of Dorkness overwhelming agrees with, before he went on his self-defensive rant on, “hey look we’re trying, man!” I’m sure you are.
Here’s my idea: bring in thugs from the street that the kids will respect, and let em smack the kids around when proper respect isn’t paid. Only at first, to break their spirit. Then check every homework, don’t let them say one word in class. The teachers need absolute discipline, too, when ensuring the discipline of the pupils. And this has to start from the 1st grade. In America young kids are treated like, “fuck it, they’re young. It’s when they get older that they’ll need to have responsibiliy.” No. They act when they’re old like they act when they’re young. After you do this, you’ll realize that the discipline isn’t even any longer necessary, and you can focus on intellectually challenging the kids and, yes, using the damn computers.
This doesn’t just go for the poor urban kids. In those suburban schools the kids aren’t as roudy but there’s just as many who don’t rise to their potential, who don’t do their homework.
When you get the orders-of-magnitude improvements, then you can chase the 20%.
Ok, alright, or that. Any way you look at it, cherry-pick-the-students or dumb-down-the-lesson is a bad system that is used often in American education.
Compared to the old MS Office. The new 2007 is very different, and is wonderful because it’s the kind of self-teaching software that kids pick up on very quick.
Uh,okay. I’ll admit that’s not a solution everyone agrees on. I think it’s an idiotic solution that wouldn’t work, and I know that most other teachers agree, and I know that most other Americans agree, and I know that most pedagogical researchers agree. Corporal punishment isn’t making a return to the classroom.
So your solution–even if it would work–is pure fantasy. Can we get back to discussing solutions that might actually occur?
Daniel
I’ve seen boot camp instructors get down-the-line discipline from a bunch of screwups from marginal neighborhoods. And these guys never laid a finger on the little darlings.
Now, let’s be honest - these were self-selected individuals intending to make this their job, and their mommies and daddies weren’t in a position to complain to the school board if feelings were hurt. Doesn’t matter - the point is you don’t need to beat the crap out of someone to get them to do their job.
And for thirteen to twenty-five years, your job should be student.
That’s pretty much it, Mr. Moto. Teaching and maintaining appropriate behavior is, of course, central to the job of teaching. Doing it through smacking students around will be counterproductive in just about every way possible (parents will sue, children from tough neighborhoods will view school as just another violent conflict, bad teachers will quickly veer into outright physical abuse, etc.). It’s also unnecessary.
It’s also completely irrelevant to this thread. This thread isn’t about corporal punishment. This thread isn’t about homework. This thread isn’t about the price of eggs in China. You want to discuss those issues, find the “New Thread” button to click on it, folks. This thread is about technology in the classroom and whether it’s useful. I’ve given multiple specific examples of how technology facilitates teaching. That’s on-point. Mr. Moto has discussed his brother’s experiences. That’s on-point.
Unless you think that technology and corporal punishment are mutually exclusive (thugs won’t be able to beat kids up unless the computers are removed), it has nothing to do with what we’re discussing.
I won’t say any more on the topic, because I don’t want it to become yet another hijack.
Daniel
The point, mr Left Hand of Dorkness is that discipline in the classroom is far more effective than technology. Then you started crying how you’re already trying and calling parents and doing your very best. But obviously the kids still aren’t listening and misbehaving. Then when I proposed another solution (mostly in jest) you waved your hands around and said we should go back to discussing technology.
Don’t you see, this is the problem. This is how discussion re technology works. Haha.
No, this is how disscisions with you work, I guess.
Let me cue you into something - LHoD and I aren’t in agreement in many arguments here. Yet here we are, hashing this out in a civilized fashion. Why can’t you do the same?
If by “technology” you mean “computers,” then yes, of course. ALso, roofs are far more important in the classroom. Also, electric light and/or access to sunlight are far more important. Also, adequate heating in cold winters is far more effective. You can teach without computers, but you can’t teach without discipline, light sources, or adequate temperature control.
Those are all irrelevant, because we’re not discussing them. They’re hijacks, three-headed monkey arguments. If you don’t know enough to address the issue of computers in the classroom, then that’s cool; learn from folks who do. But to mock people who want to discuss the issue instead of pointing at the THM–well, that says more about you than about anyone else.
Daniel
Actually, discipline is more important than electric lights and roofs. People have managed without the latter for centuries. No one will ever manage without the former.
Anyway, we’ve said a lot about technology (and yes technology == computers :rolleyes:) in the classroom, and really wrapped it up. Why not shed a few words on how people talk about technology because they’d rather not talk about discipline?
People don’t talk about discipline in the school system? Are you shitting me? Shall I list all the PD we do on discipline? Shall I outline the school’s philosophy?
And we’ve wrapped up the discussion of computers in the schools?
I can’t believe I’m continuing this hijack. YOu want to talk discipline, start a thread on it. Otherwise, for real I’m done with you this time.
Daniel