# Teens kill a man for fun. Should the 14 year old be charged as an adult? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212 "2005-05-31T14:10:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212/1 "2005-05-31T14:10:10Z")
[" The teens said they attacked the man “for fun” and “to have something to do,” "](http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/05/31/homeless.killing.ap/index.html) Now, facts are few and far between right now, so it’s hard to say all that much with certainty, but if the allegations are valid, doesn’t that mean that these kids are guilty of first degree murder? I mean, they chose to go back to the site **three times** and beat the man again and again. Does this not speak to premeditation? Also, if we have a boy whose concept of civic virtue is that it’s acceptable to kill a human being when you’re bored, do we really want him back out on the street any time soon? Will giving him a slap on the wrist and a short time in juvie really protect people from him? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212/2 "2005-05-31T14:13:20Z")
Adult trial. Life. No consideration for parole. There’s no reason for anything less. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212/3 "2005-05-31T14:45:02Z")
This is a tough one for me. On one hand, they’re still _children_. Their brains have not finished forming. Do we condemn someone for _life_ because of an act they committed when they were a kid? Are they “done” at age 14, completely unredemable to society? Or, is there a chance that they could be salvaged by intensive therapy and become productive citizens? One life has already been lost-- it seems a shame to lose more when there may be a chance (albeit slim) at redemption. On the other hand, they have done something incredibly serious and must pay the consequences. However, I don’t think “lock 'em up and throw away the key” will do anyone much good. Nor do I think a harsh punishment will deter others thinking of doing the same thing-- after all, I’m sure these kids have a TV and are aware of the punishments for murder. ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212/4 "2005-05-31T14:45:08Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Adult trial. > > Life. > > No consideration for parole. > > There’s no reason for anything less. Yes there is. The big picture. There’s presumably a good reason why an age limit is set for those who cannot be considered adult. That means making all decisions based on these principles, not picking or choosing which should fit and which should not. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212/5 "2005-05-31T14:50:33Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > This is a tough one for me. On one hand, they’re still _children_. Their brains have not finished forming. Do we condemn someone for _life_ because of an act they committed when they were a kid? Are they “done” at age 14, completely unredemable to society? Or, is there a chance that they could be salvaged by intensive therapy and become productive citizens? One life has already been lost-- it seems a shame to lose more when there may be a chance (albeit slim) at redemption. As I see it, someone who would, in cold blood, beat a man to death is pretty much ‘done’. It seems to me that someone without enough of a moral compass to resist murdering someone for fun isn’t really going to be reached by any ammount of therapy. I think it’s probably in society’s best interests for this person to not get out of jail until he’s in his early sixties. > [@martiju](#): > > There’s presumably a good reason why an age limit is set for those who cannot be considered adult. That means making all decisions based on these principles, not picking or choosing which should fit and which should not. And yet, from time to time, minors _are_ charged as adults. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212/6 "2005-05-31T14:52:04Z")
> [@Martiju](#): > > Yes there is. The big picture. The big picture is, is that a man is _dead_, forever & ever. Unfixable. And BTW–isn’t it _essential_ to demonstrate that you cannot murder our poorest & most vulnerable citizens & get away with it? You know–the Homeless? Wouldn’t a slap on the wrist encourage copycat killers? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212/7 "2005-05-31T15:03:36Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Wouldn’t a slap on the wrist encourage copycat killers? I don’t think so. I doubt any non-sociopathic teens are waiting on tenterhooks to see if they can’t get some thrill-kills in with a pentalty of only a few years in jail. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212/8 "2005-05-31T15:20:25Z")
Hire a counsellor to explain to him that he has really bad “mental problems” and will never be any use to anyone else. Then execute him. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212/9 "2005-05-31T15:26:11Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > This is a tough one for me. On one hand, they’re still _children_. Re-read the news story. One of the two is 18 years old. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212/10 "2005-05-31T15:40:32Z")
Where did this meme come from that 14 year olds are incapable of moral choice? I used to be a 14 year old, and while I did some stupid, reckless things, I was quite capable of feeling sympathy for other human beings. I would never have beat up some helpless person, and neither would even the most out of control of my friends. We’d fight each other maybe. We’d drive recklessly, do stupid vandalism, ignore “no tresspassing” signs, and embarrassing teenage crap like that. But nothing like the crime in the OP’s link. This kid is a sociopath. If he gets out he will kill again. Life without parole is the appropriate sentence for such a horrific crime. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212/11 "2005-05-31T16:07:15Z")
**Larry** , I think you hit on the prime point of importance for me. Kids do stupid things. Kids do reckless things, sometimes so stupid that other people get hurt or killed. But this kid beat a man to death, and had to go back to the scene three times in order to complete the deed. That’s way too much time for it to be an ‘accident’. And yes, I agree, this kid is a sociopath. I do not believe that society can be safe with him on the loose. Who knows, maybe next time he’ll act alone and make sure that there are no witnesses. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212/12 "2005-05-31T16:18:00Z")
They’ll probably say that the 14-yo was under the spell of the older one. But this is an utterly heinous crime, and a 14-yo is sufficiently aware to know that killing people is wrong. If he’s found guilty, then a sentence of life, probably without parole for at least 20 years, seems fitting. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212/13 "2005-05-31T16:39:59Z")
I thought the same thing **Quartz**. The kid’s defense lawyer would be a fool if they didn’t make the claim that the older kid somehow threatened or forced or coerced the younger into this act. Hopefully, the DA’s office will send someone along to deal with that sort of obfuscation. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212/14 "2005-05-31T16:45:02Z")
I agree with what **Lissa** said earlier. I think 14 is still an age where people can make drastic changes, for better or worse. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212/15 "2005-05-31T16:49:18Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > I agree with what **Lissa** said earlier. > > I think 14 is still an age where people can make drastic changes, for better or worse. Do you think that a sociopath can be taught morality within four years time? I’m asking the question in good faith. [“This is because APD is defined mainly by behaviors (Factor 2 antisocial behaviors) and doesn’t tap the affective/interpersonal dimensions (Factor 1 core psychopathic features, narcissism) of psychopathy. Further, criminals and APDs tend to “age out” of crime; psychopaths do not, and are at high risk of recidivism”](http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect16.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Fionn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Fionn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fionn)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212/16 "2005-05-31T17:33:00Z")
The article contains no information about the 14-year-old’s history. It’s possible he might not be a psychopath, sociopath or on his way to a APD diagnosis. I’m sure this will all be considered ad naseum in the trial. I’ve been pondering how much the capacity for rehab should play in sentencing. People who commit crimes much later than 14 have been known to make drastic changes in their lives, but how much should this matter when compared to their original crime? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212/17 "2005-05-31T17:38:27Z")
> [@Fionn](#): > > The article contains no information about the 14-year-old’s history. Lets assume that he has no criminal record at all. > [@Fionn](#): > > It’s possible he might not be a psychopath, sociopath or on his way to a APD diagnosis. I’m sure this will all be considered ad naseum in the trial. True, and IANAPsychologist, but still… it strikes me that a person who can murder another human being _for fun_ must have something wrong with him. ---
**Author:** ![Domokun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c77e96/32.png) [@Domokun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Domokun)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212/18 "2005-05-31T17:50:28Z")
Some crimes are so unspeakably evil there can be no mitigating circumstances. He should spend the rest of his life behind bars. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212/19 "2005-05-31T17:55:18Z")
> [@don't ask](#): > > Hire a counsellor to explain to him that he has really bad “mental problems” and will never be any use to anyone else. Then execute him. Won’t happen. > [@](#): > > The Supreme Court abolished capital punishment for juvenile offenders yesterday, ruling 5 to 4 that it is unconstitutional to sentence anyone to death for a crime he or she committed while younger than 18. Source: [Washington Post article, 02 March 2005](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62584-2005Mar1.html) ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212/20 "2005-05-31T17:57:35Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > [" The teens said they attacked the man “for fun” and “to have something to do,” "](http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/05/31/homeless.killing.ap/index.html) > > Now, facts are few and far between right now, so it’s hard to say all that much with certainty, but if the allegations are valid, doesn’t that mean that these kids are guilty of first degree murder? I mean, they chose to go back to the site **three times** and beat the man again and again. Does this not speak to premeditation? > > Also, if we have a boy whose concept of civic virtue is that it’s acceptable to kill a human being when you’re bored, do we really want him back out on the street any time soon? Will giving him a slap on the wrist and a short time in juvie really protect people from him? Try him as an adult and regret for every second of the trial that the Supreme Court says we can’t stick the needle up his sorry little ass. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teens-kill-a-man-for-fun-should-the-14-year-old-be-charged-as-an-adult/306212.md?page=2)