# Telepathy - Fact or Fiction? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 17, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148 "2003-09-17T15:39:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148/21 "2003-09-18T06:22:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > **And so, seeing or hearing a given phenomenon in his presence, I know what he is thinking, and similarly he knows the same of me. If not telepathy, it’s close enough to the classic definition to work until SF comes true.** I’m sure you’d admit in retrospect that your use of the word “know” was an exaggeration, wouldn’t you? I think most of us have experienced what you are talking about with various SOs, but unless the two of you physically share the same brain, errors will always be common. You can _guess_, but you can never _know_. All you can say is that what you’ve learned from your intimate personal experiences have enabled you to make significantly better guesses than you’d be able to make otherwise. As for the rest of your post, I’m sure it wasn’t meant to be taken all that seriously, right? Right? Two people simply behaving rationally, however rare such a thing might be in the world, can’t be interpreted as an indication of actual communication! So no, telepathy most definitely does not exist. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148/22 "2003-09-18T06:54:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Psifireus \* > \*\*What if I told you I, _personally_, have had a telepathic experience? \*\* I’d inform you that a great many people believe likewise, but those beliefs are founded on insufficient knowledge of human psychology, sociobiology, and probability as well as insufficient knowledge of all the countless details involved in what _actually_ led them to believe they’ve had such an experience. First, you must understand that the human brain has evolved to automatically link apparent cause with apparent effect, even when no such link actually exists. In other words, our brains are structured such that we are heavily biased to jump to false conclusions based on insufficient evidence, and because of other evolutionary pressures, we evolved in such a way as to imbue some of these false conclusions with powerfully compelling and confirming emotions (religious and paranormal faith is derived from this). Such biases were selected by evolution because beings which possessed such built-in biases and psychological tendencies would _also_ be more inclined to grant such significance to _actual_ cause and effect relationships between events. The **only** way to inhibit this often irrational tendency is through controlled, methodical evaluation and inquiry; i.e., science (professional or personal). Given these facts and since no one has **EVER** been able to demonstrate any form of telepathy under conditions which exclude cheating or self-delusion, as well as the fact that there is no evidence for any mechanism or force in the entire Universe with attributes even _remotely_ like that which would be necessary for telepathy, the probability is **EXTREMELY** tiny that you or anyone else has ever had a genuine telepathic experience. So tiny as to be utterly insignificant unless you or someone else can demonstrate otherwise under adequately controlled conditions. Which no one has ever done. ---
**Author:** ![Psifireus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Psifireus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psifireus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148/23 "2003-09-18T07:43:36Z")
> [@](#): > > **Ambushed** , I know I _should_ quote your post here but I’m on a _dial-up_ connection, and I’m tired…and I don’t want to wait all night, so, forgive me, but… I don’t care _what_ you say, (and it took me two readings to really know what you _were_ saying), I know what I experienced. Call me a liar if you want, accuse me of being a religious fanatic, tell me it just isn’t possible…I _know_ what you’re going to say because I would say the same things if I hadn’t been there. [And, I might add, I think it’s really unkind of you to call me a liar…since you really don’t know me, and all… …but that’s okay…I guess I can forgive you…] ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148/24 "2003-09-18T08:04:34Z")
**NightUK** , if you’re bored and want more of a headache, check the thread about John “douche” Edward in Great Debates, which is at this point mostly a debate about whether the power he claims to possess really exist. ---
**Author:** ![Psifireus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Psifireus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psifireus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148/25 "2003-09-18T08:20:16Z")
Oh, sorry **Ambushed** I didn’t catch that long-winded post of yours slamming **Polycarp’s** post until just now (damn dial-up) but… > [@](#): > > So no, telepathy most definitely does not exist. …you _may_ be mistaken. Ever give any thought to that concept? That you _might_ be mistaken about this? Just out of curiosity, if someone who’s opinion you respected told you _they_ had experienced telepathy, would that change your perception of things? Would it lend any credence to the claims of others, or not? How can you be so sure that something doesn’t exist, simply by virtue of _your_ not having seen or experienced it? Are you saying you don’t believe in anything intangible? Surely not. Maybe it’s not something that can _be_ done in a controlled environment. I just don’t see how you can say this for a fact, since, in all due respect, you really have no factual evidence to back up your claim either… […and you really were kinda’ rude to **Polycarp** back there, too…] ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148/26 "2003-09-18T08:28:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Just out of curiosity, if someone who’s opinion you respected told you they had experienced telepathy, would that change your perception of things? Would it lend any credence to the claims of others, or not? (For me?) No. Absolutely not. That’s just a modified appeal to authority. > [@](#): > > How can you be so sure that something doesn’t exist, simply by virtue of your not having seen or experienced it? Are you saying you don’t believe in anything intangible? Surely not. It’s not a matter of ‘because I/we haven’t experienced it.’ It’s because there’s no convincing reason to believe it does, and that its existence appears to defy all common sense. And I, for one, DO try not to believe in intangible things. > [@](#): > > Maybe it’s not something that can be done in a controlled environment. Oh, not this “it’s immune to science” stuff again. This “it doesn’t work around skeptics” jive. Why on earth should this be true? The fact is that once rigorous, objective standards are applied, telepathy doesn’t happen. That’s because it’s not real. > [@](#): > > I just don’t see how you can say this for a fact, since, in all due respect, you really have no factual evidence to back up your claim either… Nope. First off, any study in which someone tried to reproduce telepathy and failed, which I bet could be dug up, would be evidence. Second, it’s the pro-telepathy crowd who is making the extraordinary claim here by asking us to accept something that appears to defy the laws of physics and is supernatural. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So throw down. It’s not my or **ambushed** ’s responsibility to prove that telepathy doesn’t exist; it’s damn hard to prove a negative anyway. The burden is on you to prove it’s real. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148/27 "2003-09-18T09:52:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Psifireus \* > \*\*but… > > I don’t care _what_ you say, (and it took me two readings to really know what you _were_ saying), I know what I experienced.\*\* That’s what they _all_ say, but it has no more evidence or credibility behind it when you say it then when anyone else did. People’s self-reports of their experiences are far too subjective and unreliable to be considered evidence of _ **anything** _ other than that they _believe_ it. Also, no one denied that you experienced _something_, but there’s **every** reason to belive you misinterpreted the event and there’s **NO** reason to believe otherwise. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Psifireus \* > **Call me a liar if you want, accuse me of being a religious fanatic, tell me it just isn’t possible…I _know_ what you’re going to say because I would say the same things if I hadn’t been there.** I didn’t call you a liar OR a religious fanatic. I simply explained that you evolved to make the very kind of mistake that you actually made. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Psifireus \* > **[And, I might add, I think it’s really unkind of you to call me a liar…since you really don’t know me, and all…** I did NOT call you a liar! Stop lying about that! You need to keep re-reading my previous post until you actually understand what I said. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148/28 "2003-09-18T10:20:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Psifireus \* > \*\*Oh, sorry **Ambushed** I didn’t catch that long-winded post of yours slamming **Polycarp’s** post until just now (damn dial-up) \*\* I did nothing of the kind!! I was quite polite to Polycarp, for whom I have great respect. The fact that you keep insisting on making such ridiculous, whiny assertions is certainly not enhancing your credibility any. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Psifireus \* > **…you _may_ be mistaken. Ever give any thought to that concept? That you _might_ be mistaken about this?** Duh. What a typically ridiculous thing to ask, especially of someone who has examined this issue throroughly and cautiously for many years and whose post confirms this fact. _ **OF COURSE** _ I consider the possibility that I’m mistaken about this, just as I consider the possibility that pigs live in trees and that the surface of the Earth is actually the inside surface of a hollow sphere. But only credulists take such possibilities very seriously in cases such as these in which there is NO credible evidence in favor of those hypotheses and there is CONSIDERABLE credible evidence against them! > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Psifireus \* > **Just out of curiosity, if someone who’s opinion you respected told you _they_ had experienced telepathy, would that change your perception of things? Would it lend any credence to the claims of others, or not?** People I respect HAVE told me just that, but since they provided no more credible evidence for their claim than **you** have, and since I understand the psychological and other factors which led you and them to their mistaken beliefs, there has never been any grounds upon which I _ **should** _ change my mind. Too bad you’re so quick to believe in nonsense just because you don’t understand what happened! > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Psifireus \* > **How can you be so sure that something doesn’t exist, simply by virtue of _your_ not having seen or experienced it? Are you saying you don’t believe in anything intangible? Surely not.** Sigh. Please keep re-reading my posts until you understand them. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Psifireus \* > **Maybe it’s not something that can _be_ done in a controlled environment.** If it can **ONLY** be done in an un-controlled environment, no sane, honest and rational person would ever be daft enough to believe it’s real! > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Psifireus \* > **I just don’t see how you can say this for a fact, since, in all due respect, you really have no factual evidence to back up your claim either…** No factual evidence of evolution and human psychology? Sigh… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Psifireus \* > \*\*[…and you really were kinda’ rude to **Polycarp** back there, too…] \*\* More bullshit! There was nothing rude in what I wrote to him whatever. More to the point, if **Polycarp** thinks otherwise, don’t keep insulting and demeaning him by suggesting as you have that he can’t fight his own battles. Stop whining already. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148/29 "2003-09-18T10:42:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Psifireus \* > \*\*…you _may_ be mistaken. Ever give any thought to that concept? That you _might_ be mistaken about this? > > Just out of curiosity, if someone who’s opinion you respected told you _they_ had experienced telepathy, would that change your perception of things? Would it lend any credence to the claims of others, or not? \*\* The thing about sceptics, at least good sceptics, is that it is written into the laws of the Good Sceptic Club that they accept with open arms and minds the _possibility_ that they might be wrong – **ambushed** admitted in a post _prior_ to yours that there was “an [extremely tiny chance] that you or anyone else has ever had a genuine telepathic experience.” If a respected friend of mine claimed a telepathic experience, I would be most interested, not least because it would tell me something about my friend, and I would ask, “Friend, what was this telepathic experience? Do tell, perhaps there are other less extraordinary explanations that one might consider.” So, **Psifireus** , what was this telepathic experience? Do tell, perhaps there are other less extraordinary explanations that one might consider ---
**Author:** ![Psifireus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Psifireus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psifireus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148/30 "2003-09-18T11:46:22Z")
Sheesh, you guys are really resistant to this idea, huh? First of all, **Ambushed** > [@](#): > > Posted by **Ambushed** > That’s what they all say, but it has no more evidence or credibility behind it when you say it then when anyone else did. I’m not talking about evidence or credibility, I’m just telling you what I experienced. I’m not a scientist and I don’t conduct my life in a controlled environment, so, no I have no proof. Second, I didn’t _accuse_ you of calling me a liar or a religious fanatic, I said you could call me those things _if you wanted to_, maybe _you_ should re-read my _post_ until you understand it. Third, this: > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Psifireus > [And, I might add, I think it’s really unkind of you to call me a liar…since you really don’t know me, and all… was meant to be humorous and not intended to cause you to get all pissy with me and… > [@](#): > > Posted by **Ambushed** > I did NOT call you a liar! Stop lying about that! …call me a liar again. Now, I have to go to work, so I’ll have to finish this later. Try not to be so serious, k? ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148/31 "2003-09-18T11:46:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Psifireus \* > \*\*What if I told you I, _personally_, have had a telepathic experience? \*\* What if I told you I, _personally_, have predicted where lightning would strike? It’s called getting LUCKY. Once. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148/32 "2003-09-18T13:35:58Z")
Psifireus – if you’re going to be humorous in a thread like this, you should make it clear. Nothing to do with you in particular, but there are a LOT of people who post passionate defences of telepathy or space aliens or whatever, sounding quite similar to your post, who have NO sense of humour whatsoever. It’s natural that Ambushed wasn’t looking for humour in your post (and to be honest, you weren’t very clear that you were joking). Anyway, just because someone says they believe it doesn’t make it true – no offence to you. Any stage magician can tell you about people who believe it’s real magic, even after the magician explains that it’s all a trick and shows how it was done. Or for a more extreme example, there are people who honestly and truly believe that they are Napoleon. But that doesn’t make it so. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148/33 "2003-09-18T13:44:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Psifireus \* > \*\*Second, I didn’t _accuse_ you of calling me a liar or a religious fanatic, I said you could call me those things _if you wanted to_, maybe _you_ should re-read my _post_ until you understand it. \*\* Well you can admit to being a troll _if you want to_, but I’d much prefer if you gave us details of your telepathic experience, so we might disillusion you in a fighting ignorance kinduva way. ---
**Author:** ![Qazzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/aeb1de/32.png) [@Qazzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qazzz)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148/34 "2003-09-18T14:16:12Z")
So… Sonya Fitzpatrick can’t really read my kitty’s mind? Little Floofy doesn’t really like Iams over Fancy Feast? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148/35 "2003-09-18T18:28:53Z")
**Psifireus** , sounds like you done stuck your hand into the hornet’s nest and got stung. Nobody here was mean to you or anyone else, but everyone did demand something of you that apparently you’ve never been asked for before: Actual proof beyond your mere unsubstantiated claim. Saying you were joking _now_, _after_ you’ve felt the sting of skepticism, sounds more than a little disingenuous. If you were actually joking, you should have said so to begin with. If you weren’t, you shouldn’t retreat into that claim the moment someone challenges your unverified word. Either way, this should be a learning experience for you, and not just in how the SDMB works: This place demands intellectual rigor on a par with your average research institution, so learning about how scientific inquiry works here can be an easy first step to applying that mindset to your own life. ---
**Author:** ![Psifireus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Psifireus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psifireus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148/36 "2003-09-18T19:46:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Posted by **Derlerth** > Nobody here was mean to you or anyone else, but everyone did demand something of you that apparently you’ve never been asked for before: Actual proof beyond your mere unsubstantiated claim. Saying you were joking now, after you’ve felt the sting of skepticism, sounds more than a little disingenuous Hold it…I didn’t mean to imply that I was joking about the telepathic experience…only my statement that **Ambushed** was calling me a liar was meant as a joke. I’m dead serious about the rest. And I didn’t say _anyone_ was mean to me. I said **Ambushed** was _rude_ to **Polycarp** and I stand by that statement. IMO the response given by **Ambushed** to his/her post was very condescending. ---
**Author:** ![ltfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@ltfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ltfire)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148/37 "2003-09-19T00:34:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Derleth \* > \*\ ***Psifireus** , sounds like you done stuck your hand into the hornet’s nest and got stung. Nobody here was mean to you or anyone else, but everyone did demand something of you that apparently you’ve never been asked for before: Actual proof beyond your mere unsubstantiated claim. Saying you were joking _now_, _after_ you’ve felt the sting of skepticism, sounds more than a little disingenuous. > > If you were actually joking, you should have said so to begin with. If you weren’t, you shouldn’t retreat into that claim the moment someone challenges your unverified word. Either way, this should be a learning experience for you, and not just in how the SDMB works: This place demands intellectual rigor on a par with your average research institution, so learning about how scientific inquiry works here can be an easy first step to applying that mindset to your own life. \*\* “This place demands intellectual rigor on a par with your average research institution” You’re only saying that because you can use ‘disingenuous’ in a sentance.😃 ---
**Author:** ![ltfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@ltfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ltfire)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148/38 "2003-09-19T00:39:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ltfire \* > \*\*“This place demands intellectual rigor on a par with your average research institution” > > You’re only saying that because you can use ‘disingenuous’ in a sentance.😃 \*\* …and, nut all of us kin spel good ether.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148/39 "2003-09-19T00:47:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Psifireus \* > \*\*Hold it…I didn’t mean to imply that I was joking about the telepathic experience…only my statement that **Ambushed** was calling me a liar was meant as a joke. I’m dead serious about the rest. And I didn’t say _anyone_ was mean to me. I said **Ambushed** was _rude_ to **Polycarp** and I stand by that statement. IMO the response given by **Ambushed** to his/her post was very condescending. \*\* That’s all well and good, however, several posters have asked you to provide more details of your alleged psychic experience, but you have failed to do so. We really cannot discuss something about which we have little to no information, now can we? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148/40 "2003-09-19T00:55:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Psifireus \* > \*\*Hold it…I didn’t mean to imply that I was joking about the telepathic experience…only my statement that **Ambushed** was calling me a liar was meant as a joke. \*\* I should have read your post more closely, because that is precisely what you said. I’m sorry for the misunderstanding. And I do not think **ambushed** was rude at all. I think he offered a well-reasoned refutation of the notion that we should believe extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence. He was reasonable and polite, and even admitted that he could be wrong. Because, after all, we _all_ could be wrong. But it takes evidence to _demonstrate_ such, and it is evidence none of us have seen. In fact, the only evidence we have seen has been so strongly, so consistently, negative that it will take repeated demonstrations of something inexplicably unusual under controlled circumstances at different times and places to demonstrate our error. As for the rest, well, prove it. Set up a controlled experiment where you demonstrate your claimed powers of ESP. If you succeed, you’ll garner world attention and a substantial prize. If you fail, you’ll end up in a very large cadre that spans the generations and the globe. (I feel like Carl Sagan, and it feels good. ;)) **ltfire** : Even if I was unreasonably hyperbolic, this place is still a shining jewel of intellectualism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/telepathy-fact-or-fiction/202148.md?page=3)