# Teleportation problem #1-Matter disassembly and reassembly **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757 "2019-09-24T15:32:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757/1 "2019-09-24T15:32:17Z")
I see the problem of teleportation as two separate problems: 1. The transportation of atoms from Point A to Point B. 2. The disassembly of atoms set in a certain pattern and reassembly of atoms into the same exact pattern. For the purpose of this conversation I would like to concentrate on the 2nd problem: the breaking down of atoms in a certain pattern, followed by the reconstruction of that pattern using those same atoms…and to not sideline this into a discussion of life and souls and self and stuff I would like to stick to something simple-like the half filled bottle of Diet Mountain Dew sitting before me, perhaps. Can matter be broken down that far? Can matter be reassembled? Does it look like it is at all possible? ---
**Author:** ![cormac262](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@cormac262](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cormac262)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757/2 "2019-09-24T15:48:39Z")
There is a book “The Physics of Star Trek” by Lawrence Krauss that discusses what technologies would be required to enable things like teleportation. The “practical” way to perform teleportation, is not to transport the atoms themselves, but rather to transFER the information required to (re)create the atoms. Think of it like a fax: the image on the sheet is “captured”, then transferred, and when received, the image is re-created. So teleportation would be the same: “digitize” all the atoms to obtain the information on how to recreate, send this information, then re-create the atoms. The kicker, though, is like a fax, you end up with both the original and the re-created version. So in order to only maintain one of a person, you would need to destroy the original ! (or not - this occurred in a TNG episode with 2 Rykers existing). Do we have the technology to “digitize” atoms, to capture enough information to be able to recreate ? I don’t think so. Do we have the technology to re-create ? 3-D printing is a step in this direction. There is still a long ways to go, though. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757/3 "2019-09-24T15:51:50Z")
> [@cormac262](#): > > There is a book “The Physics of Star Trek” by Lawrence Krauss that discusses what technologies would be required to enable things like teleportation. > > The “practical” way to perform teleportation, is not to transport the atoms themselves, but rather to transFER the information required to (re)create the atoms. Think of it like a fax: the image on the sheet is “captured”, then transferred, and when received, the image is re-created For the purpose of this discussion I would like to avoid talking about all the different methods of teleportation and stick to the topic of disassembly and reassembly of atoms, not the faxing of info and/or the teleportation aspect. ---
**Author:** ![jonesj2205](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecc23a/32.png) [@jonesj2205](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jonesj2205)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757/4 "2019-09-24T15:58:25Z")
If you’re going to use the exact same atoms what’s the point of breaking down the Diet Mountain Dew can at all? Why not just carry it in some manner? You’re going to have the same mass to transmit, just in smaller units. And you’re going to have the overhead of assembly and disassembly. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757/5 "2019-09-24T15:59:21Z")
In order to reassemble the item (Mt Dew, Dr. McCoy, etc) first you have to know exactly \*precisely \*where every atom is (location), and its state (velocity). And that is fundamentally impossible. Not technologically impossible at this time, but rules of the universe impossible. How does ST get around this impossibility? By using Heisenberg compensators. (How do they work? “Very well, thank you.”) Let alone that even a 0.0001% inaccuracy in reassembly would create an error so large Dr. McCoy might not survive. Or the Mountain Dew would become evil. As much as I love ST, the transporters CAN’T work as described. the energy cost of precisely mapping the location of every atom in a person, disassembling it (how? energy beams? How many? Do they do any damage?) shipping it across 40000 miles (how? as atoms? quarks?) and then reassembling it remotely (how?) and making sure every atom is exactly _precisely_ where is should be, would be astronomical. It would be cheaper to land the Enterprise. I fan wank how the transporter _really_ works, and enjoy the show. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757/6 "2019-09-24T16:02:32Z")
> [@jonesj2205](#): > > If you’re going to use the exact same atoms what’s the point of breaking down the Diet Mountain Dew can at all? Why not just carry it in some manner? You’re going to have the same mass to transmit, just in smaller units. And you’re going to have the overhead of assembly and disassembly. Because I want to tie it in with the larger “Teleportation” problem. If we are talking about just making it into smaller parts and shipping it conventionally it is no longer part of the “Teleportation” problem-it is part of the “UPS/Fed-Ex” problem. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757/7 "2019-09-24T16:08:09Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > In order to reassemble the item (Mt Dew, Dr. McCoy, etc) first you have to know exactly \*precisely \*where every atom is (location), and its state (velocity). And that is fundamentally impossible. Not technologically impossible at this time, but rules of the universe impossible. > > How does ST get around this impossibility? By using Heisenberg compensators. (How do they work? “Very well, thank you.”) > > Let alone that even a 0.0001% inaccuracy in reassembly would create an error so large Dr. McCoy might not survive. Or the Mountain Dew would become evil. > > As much as I love ST, the transporters CAN’T work as described. the energy cost of precisely mapping the location of every atom in a person, disassembling it (how? energy beams? How many? Do they do any damage?) shipping it across 40000 miles (how? as atoms? quarks?) and then reassembling it remotely (how?) and making sure every atom is exactly _precisely_ where is should be, would be astronomical. It would be cheaper to land the Enterprise. > > I fan wank how the transporter _really_ works, and enjoy the show. 🙂 “But the animal is inside out.” PHUM!!! “And it exploded.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757/8 "2019-09-24T16:10:39Z")
**Dis** assembly is always possible: for instance, if you heat molecules up to thousands of degrees you can split apart water, nitrogen, and even carbon monoxide. There are mechanisms like protein folding to reliably construct complex molecules, and technologies like atomic force microscopy can manipulate individual atoms at room temperature, but this is all a far cry from taking a cloud of hot atomic gas and molding it into a living cell. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757/9 "2019-09-24T17:04:24Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > [E]ven a 0.0001% inaccuracy in reassembly would create an error so large Dr. McCoy might not survive. Or the Mountain Dew would become evil. Mountain Dew is already evil. The transported copy would be good. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757/10 "2019-09-24T17:11:48Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > …technologies like atomic force microscopy can manipulate individual atoms at room temperature… I have some familiarity with AFMs but this is the first time I have heard that they can manipulate individual atoms. If it’s not too much of a hijack I would love to hear more about this. ---
**Author:** ![EdelweissPirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8491ac/32.png) [@EdelweissPirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdelweissPirate)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757/11 "2019-09-24T17:30:23Z")
The reassembly-from-atoms step also raises [the Ship of Theseus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus) problem: is the reassembled person the same person, or an identical facsimile of the original? How would one tell the difference? And, even more thorny: does consciousness persist across the disassembly/reassembly steps? Or is it a “fresh” consciousness that simply has all the same memories and states as the original? And again: are these even distinguishable? These sound like sophomores-talking-late-in-their-dorm-room questions, but even so, they’re nontrivial. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757/12 "2019-09-24T17:32:36Z")
> [@EdelweissPirate](#): > > The reassembly-from-atoms step also raises [the Ship of Theseus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus) problem: is the reassembled person the same person, or an identical facsimile of the original? How would one tell the difference? > > And, even more thorny: does consciousness persist across the disassembly/reassembly steps? Or is it a “fresh” consciousness that simply has all the same memories and states as the original? And again: are these even distinguishable? > > These sound like sophomores-talking-late-in-their-dorm-room questions, but even so, they’re nontrivial. And total not pertinent to the subject of the breaking down and reassembly of a non-living object. ---
**Author:** ![EdelweissPirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8491ac/32.png) [@EdelweissPirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdelweissPirate)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757/13 "2019-09-24T17:48:58Z")
Wait…previous posts discuss exploding animals and debate whether teleported Mountain Dew would be good or evil, and you jump on _mine_ for violating your terms of service? And in IMHO? Okay; mea culpa. I’m sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757/14 "2019-09-24T17:50:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I see the problem of teleportation as two separate problems: > > 1. The transportation of atoms from Point A to Point B. > 2. The disassembly of atoms set in a certain pattern and reassembly of atoms into the same exact pattern. > > For the purpose of this conversation I would like to concentrate on the 2nd problem: the breaking down of atoms in a certain pattern, followed by the reconstruction of that pattern using those same atoms…and to not sideline this into a discussion of life and souls and self and stuff I would like to stick to something simple-like the half filled bottle of Diet Mountain Dew sitting before me, perhaps. Can matter be broken down that far? > Can matter be reassembled? Does it look like it is at all possible? Breaking down the atoms, while currently impossible, might be feasible. Assembly is another matter. There are two cases - assembly with equipment, and assembly without equipment, the way it is done on Star Trek. There are also two cases - are the actual atoms sent, or just information about the atoms and their location. If information is sent, and there is a transporter mechanism on the other side, it could have a stock of atoms which would be assembled into the teleported item. In this case, duplication is possible. It is very iffy due to all the reasons expressed, but someone could invent some technobabble to explain it. The buffer described in Star Trek holds the information while it is being assembled from the breakdown. You can lose information over time, like what happened to Mr. Scott’s friend in Relics. If there is no machine on the other side, where are the atoms coming from? You are not going to make metals from the air. So that’s a loser. Let’s assume the atoms get transmitted. One problem is that they have to be sent without loss and directly from transporter to transporter. How are you going to send an iron atom through the walls of a building not to mention hundreds of feet of rock. The problem without a machine on the other end is even worse. So, sending information to a booth on the other side might be justifiable, but nothing else. In my universe I have what is basically a transporter, but it works by opening a tunnel through another dimension to the point where you want to go, and pushing the object or person with a tractor beam, using gravity control to compensate for the different speed of the destination. Same effect but none of the practical and philosophical issues of the ST transporter. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757/15 "2019-09-24T17:54:33Z")
Don’t really want to get into the “transportation” aspect in this thread-just the “tear it up then put it together” bit. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757/16 "2019-09-24T18:08:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can matter be broken down that far? > Can matter be reassembled? Does it look like it is at all possible? Can you break down a can of soda into a pile of individual atoms? You can run it through a shredder, or heat the hell out of it and melt it into slag and steam, vaporize it with a laser, maybe. Certainly the Dew can be broken down into its component parts, eventually. Reassemble it? I’ve never heard of technology, even conceptually, that is remotely capable of taking a pile of pure elements and turning it into something resembling a can of soda. The height of assembly technology right now is 3D printing. So, perhaps you could break down the can and use sintering to rebuild a similar can (or bottle)from the same metal (or plastic or glass). However, much of the product is assembled from raw materials that are processed in multiple steps in high volumes, and with proprietary techniques. There is a plastic coating inside the can and paint outside the can either of which my involve complex reactions after the coating is applied to the metal. A plastic bottle goes through multiple steps of processing long before it even gets blown into a bottle shape. Is it possible to bypass all those complex steps and process the bottle all in a single go? If it’s a glass bottle, can you replicate the internal stress profile of annealed glass, or tempered glass, without going through a heat/cool cycle? Just assemble the glass properly stressed? I’m thinking we don’t have anything remotely resembling this, even in the barest concept stages. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757/17 "2019-09-24T18:08:11Z")
> [@EdelweissPirate](#): > > Wait…previous posts discuss exploding animals and debate whether teleported Mountain Dew would be good or evil, and you jump on _mine_ for violating your terms of service? And in IMHO? > > Okay; mea culpa. I’m sorry. I feel your pain. It was a joke in service of answering the OQ. But reassembly is the hard part. Anybody with a wee bit of power can disassemble anything. We’ve had that technology since July 16, 1945. Reassembly is tricky. I believe it is impossible, or at least unworkable, no matter the technology leap. So whether your transporter outputs an unrecognizable lump of red meat, or an evil mt Dew, the transporter still won’t work. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757/18 "2019-09-24T18:54:42Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > I have some familiarity with AFMs but this is the first time I have heard that they can manipulate individual atoms. > > If it’s not too much of a hijack I would love to hear more about this. For example, [this review article](https://www.nature.com/articles/nnano.2009.347) (from 2009) is called “Atomic force microscopy as a tool for atom manipulation” and explains how they are able to push and pull atoms, as well as swap atoms between the surface and the tip, by bringing the tip close to the surface and scanning it across the surface in certain directions. > [@](#): > > **Concluding remarks and outlook** > > In the preceding sections we have shown that the AFM can be > applied to purposefully create complex designs at semiconductor > surfaces one atom at a time, to perform atomic manipulations on > surfaces of insulating bulk materials, and to measure the forces > involved in the manipulation of atoms and molecules with the > possibility of quantifying friction at the atomic scale and characterizing > diffusion energy barriers. Despite all this recent progress, > atomic and molecular manipulation with the AFM is still at > its inception. > > There are plenty of promising applications to investigate with > the AFM, in which atomic-scale manipulation will surely be a > pivotal tool. Manipulation of small molecules with the AFM has > barely been studied, and manipulation of atoms and molecules > on surfaces of bulk insulators is an open avenue to be explored. > It may be particularly promising to combine the atom manipulation > capabilities of the AFM with recent advances for the characterization > of magnetic interactions, spin detection, > characterization of the charge state of individual adatoms, > intramolecular chemical resolution and single-atom chemical > identification. > > In many of these applications involving atomic manipulation > with the AFM, the prospect of simultaneously measuring and correlating > tunnelling currents — when electric conduction is possible > — and tip–surface interaction forces is most promising. > As the most basic feature, this approach will allow us to identify > structures invisible for the STM but visible for the AFM, and vice > versa. Nowadays, it is possible to simultaneously measure tunnelling > currents and tip–surface interaction forces at atomic scale > with AFMs based on commercial silicon cantilevers, as well as > with notable implementations such as the qPlus sensor or the > KolibriSensor. These new sensors are based on piezoelectric > detection, and have a high-resolution profile with relative instrumental > simplicity; characteristics that make them very attractive > for performing simultaneous current and force measurements in > extreme environments such as milli-Kelvin temperatures and high magnetic > fields. Hopefully, with the use of these implementations, > the variety of systems to be explored and the number of groups > working on atomic manipulation with the AFM will increase over > the coming years, so that exciting discoveries and formidable technological > achievements at the nanoscale will emerge. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757/19 "2019-09-24T21:53:25Z")
The amount of energy required to assemble, for example, a single human DNA strand, _in a short amount of time_ is non-trivial, to say the least. Multiply that by all the DNA strands in a body. Throw in all the other molecules being generated at the same time. And you end up with: A rapidly expanding cloud of steam and organic volatiles. Makes the goof Fred Kwan makes in his first attempt at transporting in _Galaxy Quest_ look nice by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757/20 "2019-09-24T22:16:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Don’t really want to get into the “transportation” aspect in this thread-just the “tear it up then put it together” bit. Right, but what gets reassembled and the context is pretty crucial. For instance, reassembling a crystal would probably not be too hard given atomic manipulation. However atoms and molecules in our bodies are moving all the time. How do you freeze them until the reassembly is complete and then let them vibrate without everything falling apart. And how can you measure where they are instantaneously, so that the reassembled body is consistent. The information versus atoms issue is fairly crucial in answering the question also. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teleportation-problem-1-matter-disassembly-and-reassembly/840757.md?page=2)