# Tell me about Coltrane **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 24, 2007, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396 "2007-05-24T19:58:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396/1 "2007-05-24T19:58:59Z")
I saw Derek Trucks last night, and it was phenomenal. They closed the show with a nice, long, wonderful jam on “My Favorite Things,” and the last time I saw them they did “Afro Blue.” So, obviously DT is listening to a lot of Coltrane – and if it’s good enough for DT, it’s good enough for me. Dunno much about Coltrane, though – grabbed my copy of _My Favorite Things_ to listen to on my way to work this morning (they didn’t need to add the two alternate takes to the CD reissue – but I digress), and of course I’ve got _A Love Supreme_ – where do I go from there? ---
**Author:** ![guppy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7feea3/32.png) [@guppy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guppy)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396/2 "2007-05-24T20:08:24Z")
Depends, do you like that stuff or would you like to hear something with a different sound? I really love his early stuff with Miles and Monk. The modal stuff that he did later (Love Supreme and Favorite things) does not appeal to me as much (although I have spent a lot of time listening to it all). Giant Steps is a great record and a great song, I would check that out as well. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396/3 "2007-05-24T20:13:56Z")
I’ve actually been listening to a fair amount of Miles Davis recently – _Witch’s Brew_ and the Jack Johnson album – because of my John McLaughlin thing. I’m not super knowlegable about jazz – obviously – what does “modal” mean in this context? ETA: Whatever modal is, I may agree with you that it’s not my favorite. One of the reasons I’ve never gotten too far into Coltrane is that neither of these albums, which I’ve always understood to be quintessential, really knock my socks off. ---
**Author:** ![guppy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7feea3/32.png) [@guppy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guppy)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396/4 "2007-05-24T20:31:14Z")
I was going to link wiki but it’s a bit technical, but the idea is that there is an emphasis on melodic changes over harmonic (chord) changes. The end result is a smoother less frenetic sound as in _Favorite Things_ or _Kind of Blue_. I think you’d really like hearing Mile’s early stuff after hearing \*Bitches Brew \* and _Jack Johnson_ (one of my favorites). I’ve always thought those albums were the gateway records to earlier jazz. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396/5 "2007-05-24T20:41:09Z")
Sorry, it’s been 30 years since I took music theory, so I’m not following this too well. [QUOTE=guppy] …the idea is that there is an emphasis on melodic changes over harmonic (chord) changes. [/quote] – modal is emphasis on melodic changes? And you’re saying _Favorite Things_ is modal? > [@guppy](#): > > The end result is a smoother less frenetic sound as in _Favorite Things_ or _Kind of Blue_. And you’re saying that these are the smoother albums, and you prefer the more frenetic early stuff? > [@guppy](#): > > I think you’d really like hearing Mile’s early stuff after hearing \*Bitches Brew \* and _Jack Johnson_ (one of my favorites). I’ve always thought those albums were the gateway records to earlier jazz. You may be right – and you may be the person who recommended _Jack Johnson_😃 So, anyway – if I want to do “the early stuff with Miles” – what album do I want? ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396/6 "2007-05-24T20:47:04Z")
How do you feel about Mingus? I recommend “Blues & Roots” and “Ah Oo” (or something like that, I’m in a hurry, no time to find my copy and see how it’s really spelled). I think Miles Davis sounds kind of '60s but Mingus for some reason sounds like it could have been done yesterday–but it’s '60s too. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396/7 "2007-05-24T20:54:15Z")
Don’t know Mingus. Let’s not get lost here people – I want to listen to some Coltrane so the next time I go see Derek Trucks I’ll get what he’s doing in the context of what he clearly has been listening to. So what Coltrane might I enjoy? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396/8 "2007-05-24T21:02:56Z")
IMO, [Blue Train](http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Train-John-Coltrane/dp/B000005H7D/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-2199099-8187302?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1180040391&sr=8-1) is the greatest jazz album that has ever been made. Just insanely creative, smoky, heroin jazz from a world-class master. Also incredibly highly recommended is [Giant Steps](http://www.amazon.com/Giant-Steps-John-Coltrane/dp/B000002I4S/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-2199099-8187302?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1180040513&sr=1-1). ---
**Author:** ![guppy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7feea3/32.png) [@guppy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guppy)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396/9 "2007-05-24T21:07:32Z")
[QUOTE=twickster] Sorry, it’s been 30 years since I took music theory, so I’m not following this too well. – modal is emphasis on melodic changes? And you’re saying _Favorite Things_ is modal? [/QUOTE] Yes and yes. [QUOTE=twickster] And you’re saying that these are the smoother albums, and you prefer the more frenetic early stuff? [/QUOTE] I think frenetic may have been a poor choice of words. I think modal jazz is boring. I like how the changing chords and modulations shape the melodies and the solos. [QUOTE=twickster] You may be right – and you may be the person who recommended _Jack Johnson_😃 [/QUOTE] I tend to do that. 🆒 [QUOTE=twickster] So, anyway – if I want to do “the early stuff with Miles” – what album do I want? [/QUOTE] I would check out _Birth of the Cool_, \*'Round Midnight \* or \*Milestones \*, they are all pretty representative of that era. I also agree with the \*Blue Train \* recommendation. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396/10 "2007-05-24T22:24:39Z")
I’m not sure that “emphasis on melodic changes” communicates the right idea. “Modal,” in the context of jazz, refers to staying in one harmonic setting for an extended time instead of negotiating the frequent chord changes common to bebop and standards. A classic example of modal Coltrane is “Impressions,” which consists of 16 bars of Dm7, 8 bars of Ebm7, and back to Dm7 for the last 8 bars. Lather, rinse, repeat. (Miles Davis’s “So What,” which Trane played on, is the same pattern.) That’s a big block of time in Dm7, and the improviser is challenged to maintain an exciting melodic flow without the regular chord changes to follow. **twickster** , you ought to check out Coltrane’s **Live at Birdland** , which contains his classic version of “Afro Blue,” **Olé Coltrane** , which features Trane and Eric Dolphy doing some wonderful extended blowing, and **Impressions** , with the above-mentioned title track and the great drone-based modal piece “India.” ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396/11 "2007-05-24T22:37:52Z")
While I was greatly impressed with Coltrane on _Kind of Blue_ and understand the influence he has had on rock musicians like the Allman Brothers, I fell out of admiration of him when he got into his avant garde phase. There is, however, an album he did with vocalist Johnny Hartman that shows his lyrical side and one called _Ballads_ that showed he still had awareness of melodic improvisation. I believe songs/tunes like _Naima_ and _Giant Steps_ are in the pantheon of jazz standards. Aside from that, I can’t really help guide you to good examples of how he may have influenced Derek Trucks. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396/12 "2007-05-24T22:41:48Z")
[QUOTE=Hilarity N. Suze] How do you feel about Mingus? I recommend “Blues & Roots” and “Ah Oo” (or something like that, I’m in a hurry, no time to find my copy and see how it’s really spelled). [/QUOTE] **Ah Um**. It’s [Ah Um](http://www.amazon.com/Mingus-Ah-Um-Charles/dp/B00000I14Z/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-1518416-0570237?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1180046453&sr=1-1). ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396/13 "2007-05-25T01:00:31Z")
Many thanks, all. Sounds like _Giant Steps_ should be the next one to check out, or maybe _Live at Birdland_. And **Zeldar** – I wasn’t looking for someone to explain the Trane/Trucks connection, just trying to explain why it was Coltrane specifically I was interested in here, not jazz of that era in general. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396/14 "2007-05-25T14:11:22Z")
[QUOTE=twickster] Many thanks, all. Sounds like _Giant Steps_ should be the next one to check out, or maybe _Live at Birdland_. And **Zeldar** – I wasn’t looking for someone to explain the Trane/Trucks connection, just trying to explain why it was Coltrane specifically I was interested in here, not jazz of that era in general. [/QUOTE] If you haven’t already, check out the [Wikipedia article on Coltrane](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Coltrane) as well as the one on [Derek Trucks](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Trucks) for any more insight into the connections. My memory of the Coltrane/Davis connection with the original Allman Brothers (and by extension the offshoots since then) had most to do with the _Kind of Blue_ influence. Coltrane’s music went through several phases (pretty well covered in the linked article) so it would be a stretch to say you could just pick any Coltrane album at random and have a good feel for his contributions to music. Even more in that vein can be said about Miles. Few players have been as instrumental in as many movements as these guys. As I said in my earlier post, my own enjoyment of Coltrane is limited to the _Kind of Blue_ period, but in the extensive biography on him that I read not too long ago I can easily see that his stamp on jazz is much greater than my own appreciation range. So depending on your own tastes you may find the entire subject of _Coltrane_ a bit puzzling or confusing. But if he touches you deeply with what’s beneath the sound, perhaps his entire catalog would be worth examining. I’d suggest library copies of selected albums as a start. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396/15 "2007-05-25T14:54:50Z")
Ah, thanks, I misunderstood what you were saying. Will look at the links later (my to-do list is long today) – thanks for providing them. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396/16 "2007-05-25T15:14:41Z")
[QUOTE=twickster] Ah, thanks, I misunderstood what you were saying. Will look at the links later (my to-do list is long today) – thanks for providing them. [/QUOTE] You’re quite welcome. If there’s more in the tenor sax that excites you, worth hearing for contrast with Coltrane are Stan Getz, Sonny Rollins, Wayne Shorter and Branford Marsalis (among dozens of other greats). I can’t think of anybody on soprano sax who comes close. And almost as many musicians since the 60’s, regardless of instrument, list Coltrane as often as Charlie Parker as being a strong influence on their approach to jazz. There’s no doubt he’s a giant. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396/17 "2007-05-25T15:28:27Z")
I’m already onboard with Getz and Marsalis – know Shorter mostly through Weather Report. But don’t worry – I’m sure there will be another “where do I go next in jazz” thread from me within a couple of months… ---
**Author:** ![guppy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7feea3/32.png) [@guppy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guppy)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396/18 "2007-05-25T15:41:57Z")
If you do get a Sonny Rolins record get _A Night at the Village Vanguard_ (it’s now in a two disc set). I’m just saying. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396/19 "2007-05-25T16:03:37Z")
[QUOTE=twickster] And **Zeldar** – I wasn’t looking for someone to explain the Trane/Trucks connection [/QUOTE] And if you were, I hope you’d know who to ask. 😉 The Allman Brothers were definitely listening to _Kind of Blue_ in the early days, **Zeldar** - they demoed My Favorite Things in 1971, and had Duane Allman lived I think they would have been playing it live by the end of that year - but Coltrane and Miles have a much larger influence on Derek’s playing than on the ABB’s. _Kind of Blue_ is one of those jazz albums that people who don’t know much about jazz (yo!) can listen to. Derek has been known to quote more obscure Coltrane stuff, like Alabama and parts of A Love Supreme, in his solos. The dTb has gigged Coltrane’s Naima and Mr. PC and the ones mentioned in the OP, and others, I’m sure, over the years. Naima and Mr. PC are both from _Giant Steps_, so while I’m no Trane expert, that’s probably the best place to go right now. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396/20 "2007-05-25T16:14:00Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] And if you were, I hope you’d know who to ask. 😉 [/QUOTE] 😉 yourself – I can’t believe I had to email you to tell you about this thread! 😛 Sounds like I should go ahead and buy _Kind of Blue_ and _Giant Steps_, and can rely on the library for the other stuff, at least for now. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-coltrane/405396.md?page=2)