# Tell me about raw milk **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 20, 2013, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-raw-milk/666681 "2013-08-20T01:27:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-raw-milk/666681/81 "2013-08-21T13:59:32Z")
What do all of the people who are making such a big deal over raw milk think about people eating oysters? Raw oyster consumption is far riskier than raw milk consumption with dozens of times as many fatalities. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-raw-milk/666681/82 "2013-08-21T14:15:11Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > I read a little farther, and was disappointed to find that no one actually did any real-world studies. I don’t care about test-tube chemistry. If you haven’t proven it in live subjects, you haven’t proven it. The FDA requires both animal and human studies prior to approving a drug. Why shouldn’t we hold pasteurization to a similar standard? > > And that is exactly how to design a study. If you think you can design it better, go ahead. I’m waiting. I don’t have anything more than a high school biochemistry education, so perhaps you can explain to me in simple terms why you “don’t care about test-tube chemistry?” It seems to me, uneducated little ol’ me, that if the test tubes show the presence of diseases in raw milk and not the same presence in pasteurized milk, that is extremely significant. Why does it rate a “don’t care” from you? Why are live subjects’ responses so critical? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-raw-milk/666681/83 "2013-08-21T14:17:55Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > What do all of the people who are making such a big deal over raw milk think about people eating oysters? Raw oyster consumption is far riskier than raw milk consumption with dozens of times as many fatalities. Oh, crud. Does it help if I douse the raw oyster in [vodka, tobasco, and lemon juice?](http://whatscookingamerica.net/Beverage/OysterShooter.htm)? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-raw-milk/666681/84 "2013-08-21T14:37:11Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > What do all of the people who are making such a big deal over raw milk think about people eating oysters? Check the numbers. Millions of children drink milk every single day. And most adults consume some kind of dairy product nearly every day. Oysters are not consumed by nearly as many people. Nor are children given oysters to eat everyday at school. Nor are they part of an average daily diet. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-raw-milk/666681/85 "2013-08-21T15:04:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why are live subjects’ responses so critical? Because Pottenger used live animals in 1946. And nothing has changed in science since then. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-raw-milk/666681/86 "2013-08-21T15:49:12Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Check the numbers. Millions of children drink milk every single day. And most adults consume some kind of dairy product nearly every day. > > Oysters are not consumed by nearly as many people. Nor are children given oysters to eat everyday at school. Nor are they part of an average daily diet. You check the numbers. Every year approximately 15 people die from eating raw oysters, but there hasn’t been a single death from drinking raw liquid milk in decades (I’m excluding the deaths from Mexican “bathtub” cheese made with raw milk). Oysters and bean sprouts are far more dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-raw-milk/666681/87 "2013-08-21T16:11:39Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > Oysters and bean sprouts are far more dangerous. Yes, but that’s the point. Millions of people aren’t eating oysters every day of their lives. Millions of people aren’t drinking raw milk, either, but they are drinking milk of some sort everyday. We balance the need to regulate with preserving freedoms. Mountain climbing is more dangerous than driving a car. But there aren’t that many mountain climbers, and mountain climbing accidents have a small impact on society. Most American families have a car and drive nearly every day. Car accidents have a major effect on society to the point we require drivers have some form of insurance. The idea that we should be more worried about oysters than raw milk is claiming we should be more concerned about uninsured mountain climbers than uninsured drivers. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-raw-milk/666681/88 "2013-08-21T16:28:39Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > You check the numbers. Every year approximately 15 people die from eating raw oysters, but there hasn’t been a single death from drinking raw liquid milk in decades (I’m excluding the deaths from Mexican “bathtub” cheese made with raw milk). Oysters and bean sprouts are far more dangerous. This tu quoque argument doesn’t hold water. In addition to milk being a staple food (particularly for children), potential dangers of raw oysters and sprouts have been publicized without their producers and consumers engaging in mass denialism. Nor are those products typically associated with bogus nutritional claims. No recent deaths from drinking raw milk, just from raw milk products? I guess [numerous outbreaks of severe illness, unnecessary hospitalizations and renal failure](http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/raw-milk-news/story/outbreaks-and-illnesses-from-raw-and-pasteurized-milk-and-dairy-products-19/) are a mere trifle. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-raw-milk/666681/89 "2013-08-21T16:52:24Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > No recent deaths from drinking raw milk, just from raw milk products? I guess [numerous outbreaks of severe illness, unnecessary hospitalizations and renal failure](http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/raw-milk-news/story/outbreaks-and-illnesses-from-raw-and-pasteurized-milk-and-dairy-products-19/) are a mere trifle. That article actually shows that there were more illnesses and deaths from pasteurized dairy products than from raw dairy products. Maybe you should start ranting about the risks of pasteurized milk as well? ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-raw-milk/666681/90 "2013-08-21T17:06:55Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > No recent deaths from drinking raw milk, just from raw milk products? I guess [numerous outbreaks of severe illness, unnecessary hospitalizations and renal failure](http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/raw-milk-news/story/outbreaks-and-illnesses-from-raw-and-pasteurized-milk-and-dairy-products-19/) are a mere trifle. Yes. As a matter of fact, they are a mere trifle. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-raw-milk/666681/91 "2013-08-21T18:36:47Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > That article actually shows that there were more illnesses and deaths from pasteurized dairy products than from raw dairy products. Maybe you should start ranting about the risks of pasteurized milk as well? As noted in a previous post: less than 1% of dairy products consumed in the U.S. are made with raw milk. That signifies a huge disprortionate risk entailed by drinking/eating raw milk products. To make it even simpler for you: if the risk of pasteurized milk was equivalent to the risk of raw milk, then based on consumption statistics the incidence of disease due to pasteurized milk should be greater than 99 times the incidence of raw milk-induced disease. Instead, the ratio is close to 1:1 (and the number of disease outbreaks due to raw milk is more than 4 times the number of outbreaks due to pasteurized milk). Now think of potential disease incidence if raw milk enthusiasts carry the day and the stuff greatly increases in popularity. Then you can talk to us about “trifles”. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-raw-milk/666681/92 "2013-08-21T18:50:20Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > As noted in a previous post: less than 1% of dairy products consumed in the U.S. are made with raw milk. > > That signifies a huge disprortionate risk entailed by drinking/eating raw milk products. My point is that the risks associated with consuming either product is miniscule. Unpasteurized dairy is certainly riskier than pasteurized dairy, but neither is especially dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-raw-milk/666681/93 "2013-08-21T18:52:37Z")
If we moved to a 50/50 split on raw and pasteurized milk and the rates of incidence stayed the same (and the 1% current raw market is accurate), then the updated summary table from that article would be: > [@](#): > > **Raw (Unpasteurized Dairy Products** > 5,900 total outbreaks > > - 4,250 fluid milk: 850 cow, 200 goat, 3,200 unspecified milk type > - 1,350 cheese: 100 aged, 150 homemade, 850 Mexican-style queso fresco, 50 goat chevre, 50 curds, 150 unspecified > - 300 multiple raw dairy products (fluid milk, cheese, and/or colostrum) > > 106,400 total illnesses, 100 deaths > > - 74,750 fluid milk-related illnesses, no deaths: 11,250 cow, 3,159 goat, 60,100 unspecified > - 28,800 cheese-related illnesses: 2,300 aged, 4,000 homemade, 16,200 Mexican-style queso fresco (100 deaths), 250 goat chevre, 3,150 curds, 2,900 unspecified cheese type > - 2,580 multiple raw dairy products-related illnesses (fluid milk, cheese, and/or colostrum) > > **Pasteurized Dairy Products** > 13 total outbreaks > > - 4.5 fluid milk > - 8 cheese: 7 non-Mexican style; 1 Mexican style queso fresco > - .5 powdered milk > > 1,393 total illnesses, 2 deaths > > - 1,100 fluid and powdered milk-related illnesses (1.5 deaths) > - 275 cheese-related illnesses: 268.5 non-Mexican style (.5 death), 6.5 Mexican style queso fresco > - 18 powdered milk-related illnesses Now, I’m sure that if raw milk were more openly allowed that the rate of illness would drop as it was increasingly provided by more reputable sourcing. But it is going to have to drop an awful lot. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-raw-milk/666681/94 "2013-08-21T20:28:14Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > Let me tell you how to design such a study. > > You take a group of animals (humans would be better as far as science goes, but the study would cost more and take longer), for instance, mice, chimps, or rats, and divide them into multiple groups. You feed each group the same milk daily, except that each individual group gets a different level of pasteurization. You’d probably want the study to go on at least a year or more, and ideally the life span of the animal (not realistic for chimps, but mice only live about 3 years). Not sure that exact protocol would be a very good test. You understand that for nearly all adult mammals, except the mutant one-fourth (or so) of the current human population, milk – either raw or pasteurized-- is mildly toxic? The ‘natural’ state of affairs for adult mammals is to not drink any kind of milk at all. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-raw-milk/666681/95 "2013-08-21T21:06:01Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > Unpasteurized dairy is certainly riskier than pasteurized dairy, but neither is especially dangerous. I have already made the point that the risk of illness from consuming raw milk is relatively low, but that it far exceeds the risk of consuming pasteurized milk. One should wonder whether it’s a good idea to pursue a risky activity that has no demonstrable health benefit when there are much safer alternatives. Another example is “neck cracking” performed by many chiropractors. Benefits of this procedure are highly questionable, but in a small proportion of cases strokes and even death have resulted from damage to neck arteries. Even if the risk is 1 in thousands of procedures, does it make sense to take the chance of devastating injury for extremely doubtful benefit? ---
**Author:** ![jbaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jbaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jbaker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-raw-milk/666681/96 "2013-08-21T21:21:19Z")
At the risk of a slight hijack: The striking thing to me about obfusciatrist’s table is how risky Mexican-style queso fresco is, especially but not only when made with raw milk. I understand it’s also not recommended for pregnant women. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-raw-milk/666681/97 "2013-08-21T21:25:41Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Not sure that exact protocol would be a very good test. You understand that for nearly all adult mammals, except the mutant one-fourth (or so) of the current human population, milk – either raw or pasteurized-- is mildly toxic? > > The ‘natural’ state of affairs for adult mammals is to not drink any kind of milk at all. Drinking milk as a non-lactase producing adult may - not must - result in varying intensity symptoms of bloating, gas, flatulence, and diarrhea. None of these should ever be described as toxic. The ‘natural’ state of affairs for adult mammals is to not eat cooked food at all. This is also true and also meaningless in terms of human behavior. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-raw-milk/666681.md?page=4)