# Tell me about the horse & buggy days. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 30, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096 "2014-01-30T03:04:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096/21 "2014-01-31T03:05:57Z")
> [@MonkeyMensch](#): > > Actually a township is 36 square miles and a section is one square mile. This gives an average of 6 miles between school sections. And villages in those areas tend to be six miles apart, having arisen at the crossing of two roads (which run down the section lines). ---
**Author:** ![texasmiss](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@texasmiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/texasmiss)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096/22 "2014-01-31T05:00:05Z")
John Mace, I am new and this forum is straight dope so I assume as much. Your not the first nerve Ive grated here so I have to conclude Its myself and whatever the etiquette is on this forum, Ill get it soon enough. When Wedgehed asked the question I kind of jumped on it because its something I know something about and thought it was really cool someone had wondered about this too, I pestered my grandmother with one question after another. I guess I don’t understand what is considered fact. I qualified with IMO on the GMO thing because I personally know people who don’t believe this but its my belief this is a fact and as with many others, which includes the country of France. I will admit I didn’t read the notes before posting and will do so now, because I dont understand what is considered fact here and by whose standards. I’m not being bitchy, I mean that honestly and sincerely Chronos, Yes I do agree that they have been breeding animals and raising crops with goals of changing them for the better, or what each breeder considers better. I could go on and on on the breeding of animals to have traits the owners want but to the demise and suffering of the animal. English bulldog is a good example. In organic gardening you always save your best fruits and vegetables for their seed. Best to one man might be a less acidic more sweet tomato, to another an unusual color. Mineral depletion last 50 yrs [Just a moment...](http://www.riordanclinic.org/research/articles/89024122_pub.pdf) The GMO im posting about is Genetic engineering which is transferring DNA, this is controversial as to what affects it has or may have on health. You posted " If the new crops weren’t as good at feeding horses, we’d still be using the old ones" there are many people such as myself who have a multitude of reasons to go back to feeding horses as close to nature as possible. Horses are becoming insulin resistant and getting ulcers. My horses are no longer stalled, they have a minimal shed to block wind and rain and thick trees, I have not had shoes on a horse in twenty years which not so long ago would have been considered neglectful for the ones I ride, (but there is very large group of people now who do not drive nails through hoof wall) The City of Houston Mounted Patrol have all been barefoot now since around 2008, the hooves are trimmed in what basically mimics the way a mustangs hoof wears down. My horses are fed hay free of choice and I do my best to get prairie hay because I want some “weeds” and natural grasses, their oats are adjusted and four horses(two were just placed in new home) of the original 12 really need no grain at all to stay in condition. Anyway, I apologize for kind of getting off topic on this but I am trying to make a case for why I believe horses may have been more fit in the old days. To be in compliance with this forum who and what determines something is fact ? ---
**Author:** ![svd678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@svd678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/svd678)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096/23 "2014-01-31T05:17:43Z")
Other posters will determine whether a fact is believable; if not, they will ask for some authority, a cite from a reference, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096/24 "2014-01-31T10:42:25Z")
> [@texasmiss](#): > > I pestered my grandmother with one question after another. I guess I don’t understand what is considered fact. Just a note: anecdotes are not considered data and need to be backed up with other sources where feasible. > [@](#): > > Horses are becoming insulin resistant and getting ulcers. Is that due to qualities inherent in the feed or to the owners not properly caring for the horses? Insulin resistance is connected not only to diet but also activity level. Domestic horses used to get a LOT more exercise than they do now. I think we can all agree working a horse to death is a bad thing and it’s good that it’s much less common now, but not exercising a horse enough is also a bad thing. I think there are a lot of people out there somehow convinced that a level of exercise/work that is, in fact, healthy for a horse is somehow “cruel”. Lack of activity leads to fat horses, which, like humans, are more likely to have problems with insulin. > [@](#): > > My horses are no longer stalled, they have a minimal shed to block wind and rain and thick trees, I have not had shoes on a horse in twenty years which not so long ago would have been considered neglectful for the ones I ride, (but there is very large group of people now who do not drive nails through hoof wall) Oh, please - I worked on a horse farm over 35 years ago. Barefoot horses aren’t a new concept. We did have a horse with deformed feet who had to be shod with corrective shoes at all times to be able to walk properly, much less run. The ponies who went on winter trail rides had shoes with cleats on them to give them more traction on slick ground. Other horses might or might not have had shoes. Horse shoes do serve a purpose, particularly for horses either pulling heavy loads and/or on hard surfaces nearly constantly. A split hoof is no joke for a horse, and preventing them is all to the good. A privately owned horse that is not ridden daily, is not constantly on hard surfaces, and not working hard does not need shoes and this has been known for a long, long time. I agree, some people shoe horses that don’t strictly need them, but that doesn’t mean we should discard the concept entirely. > [@](#): > > My horses are fed hay free of choice and I do my best to get prairie hay because I want some “weeds” and natural grasses, their oats are adjusted and four horses(two were just placed in new home) of the original 12 really need no grain at all to stay in condition. Again, none of this is news. It’s long been recommended that horses have access to natural grazing, and there has always been hay that’s a mix of various “weeds”. Use of grain is a supplement for _working_ horses, meaning those with a serious job. Overuse of grain can lead to problem and that’s been known for thousands of years. The other thing is that you live in _Texas_ - horses up where I am who are outside all winter need extra calories to keep warm which means a different diet. > [@](#): > > Anyway, I apologize for kind of getting off topic on this but I am trying to make a case for why I believe horses may have been more fit in the old days. Horses were more fit in the old days because they got more exercise/work - except, of course, for the ones that were overworked. Wild horses get a lot of exercise due to survival needs - moving to food locations, running from predators. Domestic horses don’t have to search for food and are protected from predators, and, being horses, are otherwise pretty lazy and happy to nap quite a bit of the day. Sure, they’ll trot around their paddock and wander over fields, but that’s nowhere near an optimal amount of physical activity for their species. Which is why, for thousands of years, it’s been known that you need to have a human exercise the beasts for them to remain in top condition. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096/25 "2014-01-31T11:03:08Z")
> [@Rocketeer](#): > > And villages in those areas tend to be six miles apart, having arisen at the crossing of two roads (which run down the section lines). And they usually put the schools in the villages. After all, the density of students is higher in villages, so putting the schools there would minimize travel times for the highest number of students. The section meant for school support was usually sold off and the proceeds used to build the schools. In some places they may have built the schools on that section, but a square mile is far more land than any school would have needed. So even then, most of the school section was sold. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096/26 "2014-01-31T16:47:07Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > It really depends on the terrain and quality of the roads. My mother’s family is from rural West Virginia where both terrain and roads posed serious issues. > > My mother (now 86) talks of how she was told how her grandmother had the fortitude to gather up the little ones and ride the carriage an hour each way for family visits of some sort. She (my mother) thinks that this was remarkable only in how little was expected of fortitude from women in those days, comparing it to her driving 10 hours to visit WVa from Michigan. > > I hold my tongue, but I do wonder whether that 1 hr wagon ride (including hitching the horses and all else that implies) requires less fortitude than a 10-hr road trip in the 60’s, before Interstates (for that route). It’s a 7-hr drive now, either by turnpike or taking the cross-country hypotenuse. > > My guess is that the modern trip (even in the 60’s) is less risky, with far more options if anything goes wrong on the way. > > I remember asking her father (who grew up in a town about the size of Hootersville) about the first time he saw a car. He was 10 (making it 1908) and it was quite an event, in Reedy, WVa. Hm, I would suggest that you borrow an older pickup truck [you know the kind, really hard suspension, nothing like a car] and find the nearest dirt road that has those really annoying thin horizontal potholes that my Dad calls a ‘boneshaker’ and spend an hour driving back and forth on it. See, that tiny little boneshaking vibration constantly for an hour can make you more tired that 8 hours on a smooth road as _everything_ gets that little shake, so you are constantly adjusting how you are trying to sit and focus. [I actually have the perfect road to illustrate this near my Mom’s house near Rochester NY. It is a sort of short cut past the Wadsworth’s Nations Road farm between Roots Tavern Rd and Avon Rd.] Just like riding a horse is actually a fair amount of exercise doing the whole balance thing [great exercise for the torsos core muscle group and thighs!] or sitting on one of those big rolly ball office chairs, the darndest things are actually fairly intense exercise when it comes to the small muscle movements that are needed for balance. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096/27 "2014-01-31T16:47:14Z")
a whole township might contain one or none villages; there might be clusters of homes, a general store, blacksmith, dairy that never became villages. schools can be run by townships maybe even two combined. post offices were placed to facilitate delivery, they could be in the store in that area or even a private home. sparse townships may have no stores, schools or post office and be served by those of neighboring townships. clusters might be known by there post office name. ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096/28 "2014-01-31T17:57:50Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > And they usually put the schools in the villages. After all, the density of students is higher in villages, so putting the schools there would minimize travel times for the highest number of students. Not necessarily. Even though the villages/towns had their own schools, there were still plenty of rural schools that were no where near a town. Oddly enough, these were built on the school section. > [@](#): > > The section meant for school support was usually sold off and the proceeds used to build the schools. In some places they may have built the schools on that section, but a square mile is far more land than any school would have needed. So even then, most of the school section was sold. Not necessarily. In my state, the school lands were, and some still are, state property and are administered by the Department of School and Public Lands. [Here](http://www.sdpubliclands.com/history/index.shtm) is what it says about how that department came about. As you can see, at least some, if not most, of the school land here is leased out and has not been sold. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096/29 "2014-01-31T19:41:02Z")
Don’t know if it’s been mentioned yet, (just skimmed this thread) but . . . In the horse-and-buggy days, people living in cities generally couldn’t all own their own buggies and horses. (Where would they keep them?) This was the milieu where mass-transit began to be developed. There were horse-drawn street cars. [Picture.](http://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/horsecar.jpg) Google Images can find you many more pictures like these. I’ve even seen some home-style movies showing them in action. Mayhap you could find some on YouTube. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096/30 "2014-01-31T20:15:31Z")
people had a stable behind the house. in areas with old housing you will find large tall garages in alleys that were stables. these now garages had small haylofts. i’ve seen these in large metro areas and small towns. ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096/31 "2014-01-31T20:18:26Z")
Yep, in looking at old BEV pictures from around here, you can see that pretty much every house has a barn behind it. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096/32 "2014-02-01T03:26:14Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > and the horse would walk itself back to the farm with the wagon in tow. I imagine it was a pretty slow pace. Not really. The horse knows it’s feed is waiting at the barn, and it is well rested from standing around in front of the bar most of the day. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096/33 "2014-02-01T04:43:30Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Don’t know if it’s been mentioned yet, (just skimmed this thread) but . . . > > In the horse-and-buggy days, people living in cities generally couldn’t all own their own buggies and horses. (Where would they keep them?) > > This was the milieu where mass-transit began to be developed. It was also the reason livery stables existed. You could rent a horse (and if desired, a buggy) when you needed one, just like modern city dwellers use Zip Car. And of course you could also hire a horse-drawn cab. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096/34 "2014-02-01T06:52:56Z")
> [@johnpost](#): > > people had a stable behind the house. in areas with old housing you will find large tall garages in alleys that were stables. these now garages had small haylofts. i’ve seen these in large metro areas and small towns. Today, you can see private residential houses with [large garages](http://www.airportairparkhomes.com/features/194.asp) with private _airplanes_ in them, and a runway down at the end of the block. So you just drive your airplane down the street to the runway when you want to go for a spin. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096/35 "2014-02-01T06:57:22Z")
> [@johnpost](#): > > people had a stable behind the house. in areas with old housing you will find large tall garages in alleys that were stables. these now garages had small haylofts. I’ve seen these in large metro areas and small towns. If you do the google map thing for 108 N Main St Perry NY, and look at the house at the corner of Main and Elm St, you will see an L shaped smaller building behind the main house. That is a barn with a loose box stall and 3 single horse stalls, a tack room and a carriage house. The upper part is the hay loft, the stalls and box are paneled in mahogany. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096/36 "2014-02-01T12:12:59Z")
> [@Kimballkid](#): > > Not necessarily. Even though the villages/towns had their own schools, there were still plenty of rural schools that were no where near a town. Oddly enough, these were built on the school section. > > Not necessarily. In my state, the school lands were, and some still are, state property and are administered by the Department of School and Public Lands. [Here](http://www.sdpubliclands.com/history/index.shtm) is what it says about how that department came about. As you can see, at least some, if not most, of the school land here is leased out and has not been sold. There were about 30 states that had their lands chopped up into townships with one section allocated for public schools. If you look into the details of all thirty, you’ll find all kinds of variations on how they handled this. So any general statement about them is bound to have exceptions. Hence the qualifying “usually” in both statements I made about them. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096/37 "2014-02-01T13:15:57Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Don’t know if it’s been mentioned yet, (just skimmed this thread) but . . . > > In the horse-and-buggy days, people living in cities generally couldn’t all own their own buggies and horses. (Where would they keep them?) > > This was the milieu where mass-transit began to be developed. There were **horse-drawn street cars.** [Picture.](http://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/horsecar.jpg) Google Images can find you many more pictures like these. I’ve even seen some home-style movies showing them in action. Mayhap you could find some on YouTube. They still have those in Douglas, on the Isle of Man. (Google “Douglas horse trams”.) Running in the summer months only – basically a tourist attraction, not serious competition for the town buses ! ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096/38 "2014-02-01T13:25:22Z")
The problem with horses in big cities was a lot more than their accommodation. > **[Eric A. Morris](http://www.ericandrewmorris.com/index.html)** > > Eric Morris is Professor of City and Regional Planning at Clemson University. He hails from Deerfield, IL, a suburb of Chicago. He attended Deerfield High School. As a child and teenager he worked as... [http://www.uctc.net/access/30/Access%2030%20-%2002%20-%20Horse%20Power.pdf](http://www.uctc.net/access/30/Access%2030%20-%2002%20-%20Horse%20Power.pdf) > [@](#): > > Morris points out that, by the late 1800s, large urban centers were “drowning in horse manure.” Not only were there no solutions in sight, people were making dire predictions: > In 1894, the Times of London estimated that by 1950 every street in the city would be buried nine feet deep in horse manure. One New York prognosticator of the 1890s concluded that by 1930 the horse droppings would rise to Manhattan’s third-story windows. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096/39 "2014-02-01T13:43:03Z")
I can’t speak to how the “school section” was handled any place but Iowa. In the mid-19th century when the Feds sold off the land, one section (640 acres) in each surveyed township (six miles square, as opposed to political townships which came in all sorts of shapes and sizes) was reserved to fund the public schools. Generally the “school section,” except a one acre plot, was sold off for seed money for the public schools. Frequently a one or two room rural school was built on the reserved acre, ownership of which was held by the school district. When the rural schools were abandon after WWII the school district sometimes just walked away from the increasingly dilapidated rural school building without doing anything about the ownership of the land. The surrounding farm sometime just absorbed the school site. When I first came this area more than forty years ago there was a pretty good business in clearing title to old abandon school lots. Often the building was moved to a nearby farmstead and became just another outbuilding. The old school sites are pretty well gone now – you can still see a few buildings in the process of falling in on themselves but for the most part the only trace is a few broken bricks turned up by a plow. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096/40 "2014-02-01T16:28:32Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > The problem with horses in big cities was a lot more than their accommodation. [snipped quote: “…by the late 1800s, large urban centres were ‘drowning in horse manure’. Not only were there no solutions in sight, people were making dire predictions…”] I have long had a potential solution to this worry on the part of 19th-century futurologists. I being a railway-and-steam-buff, I acknowledge that I may be somewhat blinkered as regards drawbacks to this wonderful scheme. Even if electricity and internal combustion were never to come along: steam locomotion and railways, became well established in the early / mid-19thC. So: set up steam-hauled narrow-gauge railways running between city centres (tram-type tracks set into the streets) and the outlying suburbs / countryside, in all directions. These n/g railways to be for the designated purpose of carrying the horse manure out of the city, into the suburbs and countryside, for use as fertilizer by gardeners / smallholders / farmers. Run the lines as far-and-expansively out into the rural areas, as needs to be. Apply whatever incentives necessary, from financial to “at gunpoint”, to get the cultivators to accept the manure. There would be no end of urban poor folk, desperate to earn a living, who would jump at the chance of doing so by the various kinds of shit-handling involved in this undertaking. As far as possible, eliminate horse-hauled city trams [streetcars] in favour of steam-hauled same. Some of the horse-crap might be dried and used as locomotive fuel, both for the shit-shifting narrow gauge lines, and the urban steam trams. Find ways and means to process and store horse manure, for use at need as fertilizer, in other places and times. Where there’s a will… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-about-the-horse-buggy-days/680096.md?page=1)