Tell me again why hemp is illegal?

[Mr.Miskatonic]

@Try2B_Comprehensive

Thanks, that was an informative article.
My point about the harvesting of forests was in response to the objection that hemp is somehow ‘too difficult’ to harvest and therefore ought to be rejected. The question I’m asking is: “How could harvesting hemp be more difficult than cutting down a forest?”

Tree cutting and harvesting are two different activities.

Tree cutting on plantations is a very refined activity that has had decades of perfection. Loggers on plantations can work quickly to chop down the tree, trim it, and load it onto trucks. The process is extremely efficient and loggers can even harvest trees growing on the sides of hills without much difficulty. Once the tree is chopped and delimbed it can pretty much go into the mill with little more work.

Hemp, by comparison, is harvested and requires farm equipment. You really cant use a chainsaw on it efficiently (although you can try). Hemp jams and clogs farm machinery, clogs the blades, and so on making it troublesome. Then you must find a way to get at the relevant part of the hemp plant. You can’t just stuff it willy-nilly into a pulping system. You have to get the core out. That is not easy.

You can do it, but it is just not worth the hassle. Even if you wanted to shy away from using trees, there are crops that would probably do a better job than hemp.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

@Contrapuntal

How much old growth forest is being harvested for paper?

I’m quoting from the link provided by JThunder

Today, 90% of paper pulp is made of wood. Paper production accounts for about 43% of harvested wood

Trees raised specifically for pulp production account for 16% of world pulp production, old growth forests 9% and second- and third- and more generation forests account for the balance.

So 9%… of the total harvested for pulp. I don’t have the figure for the overall total wood-for-pulp harvest.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

@Mr.Miskatonic

Hemp, by comparison, is harvested and requires farm equipment. You really cant use a chainsaw on it efficiently (although you can try). Hemp jams and clogs farm machinery, clogs the blades, and so on making it troublesome. Then you must find a way to get at the relevant part of the hemp plant. You can’t just stuff it willy-nilly into a pulping system. You have to get the core out. That is not easy.

Cotton was a pain to work with before the cotton gin. Now it is no problem. Since hemp has been illegal for almost a century the innovation for its processing just hasn’t been there. But I guess if we can’t stuff material ‘willy-nilly’ into a mill, then it is automatically crap.

I don’t doubt that cutting down old-growth forests is cheaper than harvesting a crop- the forest grows all by itself, you just have to show up and haul it away. What is that business term that refers to costs that are passed on to the general public but not accounted for by a business, including things like environmental degredation and depriving the public of natural forest so you can make a buck?

You can do it, but it is just not worth the hassle. Even if you wanted to shy away from using trees, there are crops that would probably do a better job than hemp.

I’ll certainly entertain the idea, but I need to see the numbers. I was too busy watching the Broncos smack the Cowboys around this weekend to look into this, give me another day or two to look up some numbers, and to respond to everyone else.

[Contrapuntal]

@Try2B_Comprehensive

I’m quoting from the link provided by JThunder
So 9%… of the total harvested for pulp. I don’t have the figure for the overall total wood-for-pulp harvest.

That’s world pulp production. The question at hand concerns making hemp legal in the US.

[Mr.Miskatonic]

@Try2B_Comprehensive

Cotton was a pain to work with before the cotton gin. Now it is no problem. Since hemp has been illegal for almost a century the innovation for its processing just hasn’t been there. But I guess if we can’t stuff material ‘willy-nilly’ into a mill, then it is automatically crap.

Cotton was still a pain to work with even with the Cotton Gin. But Cotton had a big advantage in that people wanted it. It was always a valuable luxury fabric up until recently and so even with the difficulty in harvesting it there was return for the effort.

BY comparison, Hemp has shown itself to be the second best way to do things, at best. There is no impetus. There was no impetus. The lack of a cotton gin for hemp is not the fault of it being illegal in just the US. It had centuries of being legal before the 20th century and plenty of time in other countries for development. But we have nothing.

I don’t doubt that cutting down old-growth forests is cheaper than harvesting a crop- the forest grows all by itself, you just have to show up and haul it away.

Actually, as has been shown to you, it is mostly tree farms that are used to make pulp.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

@Mr.Miskatonic

Actually, as has been shown to you, it is mostly tree farms that are used to make pulp.

I can agree with you and still say don’t play mostly with me, mister. If you cut down any old growth and replant it with a tree farm, it just ain’t the same.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

@Mr.Miskatonic

But Cotton had a big advantage in that people wanted it.

If hemp is limited to roles like those filled by poppyseed or linen, obviously the demand will seem low. But put it up against Big Oil and big paper, big chem&auto, big pharma, big agri- why then it looks like it might play ball!

[DrDeth]

@Try2B_Comprehensive

I can agree with you and still say don’t play mostly with me, mister. If you cut down any old growth and replant it with a tree farm, it just ain’t the same.

Ok, but what are they clearing to grow Hemp? Look, you got to use land for either.

In any case, we’re talking here going forward in the USA and going forward, they no longer cut down Old Growth forest in the USA for paper. Now sure, they do sometimes log non-tree farm forests, but then what’s used for paper pulp is byproduct. In fact, I doubt if anywhere they cut down large old growth tree just for paper pulp,it makes no sense- the lumber is worth 10X pulp.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

@Mr.Miskatonic

It had centuries of being legal before the 20th century and plenty of time in other countries for development. But we have nothing.

Nothing might be putting it a little strongly. Check out the hemp museum. It has the kind of flavor you might expect from a hemp-themed project, but check out at least the very first 1-minute video. It repeats the claim that hemp produced 4x the pulp for paper vs. wood.

I’m not going to vouch for the ironclad veracity of the claim- I can’t. That’s my big difficulty with this topic. For every statistic that makes hemp seem a poor crop there is another, contradictory one that makes it look worth investigating.

If the claim is true, what is the problem? (I’m going to reject the ‘hemp is too hard to harvest’ argument) Even if hemp produces poorer quality paper, surely things like paper towels and TP at least could be made from it, or the trouble resolved with a little thought? The gain would be that every hemp acre planted frees up 4 acres of tree farm. We could turn that land into corn farms, or I don’t know, low income housing or something.

[Mr.Miskatonic]

@Try2B_Comprehensive

Nothing might be putting it a little strongly. Check out the hemp museum. It has the kind of flavor you might expect from a hemp-themed project, but check out at least the very first 1-minute video. It repeats the claim that hemp produced 4x the pulp for paper vs. wood.

So it repeats a lie, big deal.

I’m not going to vouch for the ironclad veracity of the claim- I can’t. That’s my big difficulty with this topic. For every statistic that makes hemp seem a poor crop there is another, contradictory one that makes it look worth investigating.

If the claim is true, what is the problem? (I’m going to reject the ‘hemp is too hard to harvest’ argument) Even if hemp produces poorer quality paper, surely things like paper towels and TP at least could be made from it, or the trouble resolved with a little thought?

It is not just ‘a little thought’. Pulp paper has been around for DECADES and has and has all that time for development, pollution controls, efficiency, and so on. You would have to overhaul an entire industry (or at least a huge portion of it) at hideous expense just to satisfy…who?

As for TP and paper towel…one of the reasons that hemp paper was consider so bad is because it takes inks poorly. I cannot say for certain but that sounds like a perperty I don’t want with my TP.

The gain would be that every hemp acre planted frees up 4 acres of tree farm.

No. It does not. That is a lie, albeit an oft repeated one.

We could turn that land into corn farms, or I don’t know, low income housing or something.

Seriously, have you never been through the center of this country? We have so much space that we (the US gov’t) are buying it back and letting it go back to plains. The problems you hear with farm space have to do with farms closer to urban centers being bought up and turned into McMansions, etc.

Tree farms are not in areas where we need more crops or housing.

[Mr.Miskatonic]

@Try2B_Comprehensive

If hemp is limited to roles like those filled by poppyseed or linen, obviously the demand will seem low. But put it up against Big Oil and big paper, big chem&auto, big pharma, big agri- why then it looks like it might play ball!

Sorry bud, but Cotton was kind before there were ‘big-pharma’ and ‘big-paper’ and hemp was a sad player on the sidelines. Hemp cloth has too many problems to compete with Cotton back then or even today. If you don’t believe me, ask an experienced seamster or costumer how they like working with hemp. I’ve had them tell they’d rather work with leather. - it’s easier.

Hemp has always been a bit player for a specialty market.

[Contrapuntal]

@NajaNivea

I don’t know the factual answers either way, but as an if/then statement, if the answer to the latter is “yes” then I’d submit that the answer to the former is “too much”.

If a frog had wings he wouldn’t bump his ass every time he jumps.

Your cite says that 5% of US production is from old growth. JT Thunder’s cite says that 9% of world production is from old growth. Hemp is illegal here, and legal in most of the rest of the world. So, tell me again why legalizing hemp will reduce old growth harvesting.

[NajaNivea]

@Contrapuntal

So, tell me again why legalizing hemp will reduce old growth harvesting.

I made no such argument. You asked how much old-growth forest gets logged for paper (period). All I did was submit the (what I thought was ironic) data point that some portion of it goes to the luxury toilet paper industry: a partial answer to your question, not a comment on the “glorious potential of hemp”.

You asked if hemp would solve the problem. I said “I don’t know. If so, then I’m in favor of using hemp instead.” It seems the answer is “no”. That won’t stop me from snickering about pampered assholes, but it has no connection to the OP’s crusade.*
*although you have to admit it would have been funny if it worked out that way, and the pampered (“eff the virgin Canadian forest”) assholes and the hemp crusaders joined alliances.

[Bill_Door]

Here’s a reply I made to an OP regarding making paper from leaves. Everything in it applies to hemp fiber as well.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

@xtisme

There is no large incentive to de-criminalize it, basically.

Ah, but the law isn’t about popular consensus. I can see what you mean in practical terms though

Most of the ‘hemp is a miracle crop and even an alternative vegetable’ crowd want to de-criminalize it so they can get a wedge in to de-criminalize the recreational version.

Speculation. Overruled!

Personally I think that we SHOULD de-criminalize both

Me too. I think it is a terrible waste of resources to chase and punish pot smokers.

but I think most of the arguments for why no one really cares that much about hemp have already been shown to you.

I suppose so. It sounds like you’re implying inattention with your last comment. That’s ok. Fact is I’m particularly busy just lately and it takes me days to process a thread. What might appear as inattention- or that I’m dumb!- is really that I’m days behind. I’m not the best 'doper, I admit it.

As for the question being answered… well sort of. I can see your point about the limited interest in it.
-It isn’t the best for ethanol. Someone claimed even corn is better, though I still doubt that. To me the relevant factor is the energy yield- how many units of energy do you get back for every one you put in? Corn is the worst at 1.5. Switchgrass is 4, sugarcane 8. I couldn’t find this number for hemp- the most promising-looking articles require a subscription or something- but I bet $5 that hemp is better than corn in this factor.
But everything looks like it might be obsoleted by the latest algae technology. I’ll be darned if I can find that link, but one company can currently produce 6000 gallons per acre, blowing the competition away if the overhead isn’t too high.

-Perhaps not the best for fiber. I feel like this argument was a little slanted though. Turns out that for a high-quality product, hemp pulp might need to be- and I’m going to break it up here to make sure you’re sitting down before I lay this on you- :eek:blended:eek: with other fibers. Whew, talk about crazy!
And apparently mass hemp industry might create an implacable cube of vegetable matter 1000 ft to a side which the local authorities would be powerless to store.

But this, and all the other points about hemp’s agricultural performance, are in fact irrelevant to the op. Crabapple isn’t very useful. Crabgrass neither. Neither of those are illegal. Whether hemp can compete or not is up to the market to decide, not the law.

The only real answer to the op was when someone mentioned that there is really no good reason why hemp is illegal. Sure, pot’s ban has evolved from racial prejudice to a THC ban, but I’ve come back around to the view that hemp isn’t pot. They’re distinct varieties- some authorities think there should be separate species classifications between hemp and pot, namely sativa and indica. The only way the two can be confused in the eyes of the law is, I think, willfully.

If there are no objections, I believe that settles the argument.

[DrDeth]

@Try2B_Comprehensive

-It isn’t the best for ethanol. Someone claimed even corn is better, though I still doubt that. .

No “claim”. I found a cite and gave it to you.
*wiki Corn yields “US is 321 to 424 gal/acre” and that’s just the grain itself, there’s quite a bit possible from the silage or stalks.

A pro hemp site:
http://fuelandfiber.com/Hemp4NRG/Hemp4NRGRV3.htm

146 gallons per acre.

So, it’s the opposite, hemp yields 1/2- 1/3 of what Corn does. Which makes sense, corn has a lot more sugar than hemp does. OTOH, sugar cane yields 727 to 870 gal/acre*

Now, if you have a cite otherwise, trot it out.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

@DrDeth

No “claim”. I found a cite and gave it to you.
*wiki Corn yields “US is 321 to 424 gal/acre” and that’s just the grain itself, there’s quite a bit possible from the silage or stalks.

A pro hemp site:
http://fuelandfiber.com/Hemp4NRG/Hemp4NRGRV3.htm

146 gallons per acre.

So, it’s the opposite, hemp yields 1/2- 1/3 of what Corn does. Which makes sense, corn has a lot more sugar than hemp does. OTOH, sugar cane yields 727 to 870 gal/acre*

Now, if you have a cite otherwise, trot it out.

No, it is about energy yield, not gallons per acre. And the further point that hemp can be grown on land that not currently producing anything.

I will try my darndest to find a cite. I already mentioned I couldn’t find the energy yield of hemp…

[DrDeth]

@Try2B_Comprehensive

No, it is about energy yield, not gallons per acre. And the further point that hemp can be grown on land that not currently producing anything.

Really, do you have an unbiased cite that hemp can be grown on more marginal land than corn? Corn is grown in some pretty marginal farmland.

And, the energy yield= **gallons per acre. ** I gave you those figures.

Now, if you’re talking about how much energy it yields as opposed to how much it costs to grow, then no one has any decent figures on hemp (no one grows large areas of hemp for fuel). There, sugarcane is better, but it’s also better in gallons per acre. Unfortunately, sugar cane is much more geographically limited than corn, which is why it’s only really grown in the USA in Hawaii and Puerto Rico. Also that figure isn’t all that critical.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

All right! Here’s the link to the latest technology in algae ethanol:

Algenol is a company developing a process to produce ethanol directly from algae. Rather than grow algae and then harvest them, the ethanol is removed without killing the algae.
Algenol claim the process can produce 6,000 US gallons per acre per year
the company says it plans to produce 1 billion US gallons (3,800,000 m3) by the end of 2012 which would make it the worlds largest ethanol producer. [1][2] They have claimed production costs as low as 85¢ per US gallon (22¢/l).

Pretty much makes any questions about corn ethanol moot, no?

[Labrador_Deceiver]

@Try2B_Comprehensive

All right! Here’s the link to the latest technology in algae ethanol:
Pretty much makes any questions about corn ethanol moot, no?

What questions about corn ethanol? I thought we were talking about hemp.