# Tell me how to use a guitar as a frame of reference for common vocal ranges, please. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 29, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-how-to-use-a-guitar-as-a-frame-of-reference-for-common-vocal-ranges-please/691929 "2014-06-29T12:57:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-how-to-use-a-guitar-as-a-frame-of-reference-for-common-vocal-ranges-please/691929/1 "2014-06-29T12:57:39Z")
Using a guitar, standard tuning, as a reference point.[ul] [li]A typical Soprano would sing from[/li]\_\_\_ Fret of the \_\_\_ String to \_\_\_ Fret of the \_\_\_ String [li]A typical Alto would sing from[/li]\_\_\_ Fret of the \_\_\_ String to \_\_\_ Fret of the \_\_\_ String [li]A typical Tenor would sing from[/li]\_\_\_ Fret of the \_\_\_ String to \_\_\_ Fret of the \_\_\_ String [li]A typical Baritone would sing from[/li]\_\_\_ Fret of the \_\_\_ String to \_\_\_ Fret of the \_\_\_ String [li]A typical Bass would sing from[/li]\_\_\_ Fret of the \_\_\_ String to \_\_\_ Fret of the \_\_\_ String [/ul] I’m thinking a Bass vocalist maybe reaches lower than the open E on the sixth string (would he?), but a soprano wouldn’t reach higher than the highest frets of the first string, would she? ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-how-to-use-a-guitar-as-a-frame-of-reference-for-common-vocal-ranges-please/691929/2 "2014-06-29T13:28:00Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > Using a guitar, standard tuning, as a reference point.[ul] > [li]A typical Soprano would sing from[/li]\_\_\_ Fret of the \_\_\_ String to \_\_\_ Fret of the \_\_\_ String > [li]A typical Alto would sing from[/li]\_\_\_ Fret of the \_\_\_ String to \_\_\_ Fret of the \_\_\_ String > [li]A typical Tenor would sing from[/li]\_\_\_ Fret of the \_\_\_ String to \_\_\_ Fret of the \_\_\_ String > [li]A typical Baritone would sing from[/li]\_\_\_ Fret of the \_\_\_ String to \_\_\_ Fret of the \_\_\_ String > [li]A typical Bass would sing from[/li]\_\_\_ Fret of the \_\_\_ String to \_\_\_ Fret of the \_\_\_ String > [/ul] > > I’m thinking a Bass vocalist maybe reaches lower than the open E on the sixth string (would he?), but a soprano wouldn’t reach higher than the highest frets of the first string, would she? I’m sure there are better references than [Vocal range - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocal_range) and [Range (music) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_(music)) but they may help a little. I suspect you’re right about the Open E not being low enough to catch all a Bass can reach, and I would hate to hear a Soprano go higher than the upper end of the High E string, but the chart at _Typical ranges_ on that second link seems to support the Low E limit for a regular “not bass” guitar… ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-how-to-use-a-guitar-as-a-frame-of-reference-for-common-vocal-ranges-please/691929/3 "2014-06-29T13:41:42Z")
C3 would be 5th string 3rd fret? Is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-how-to-use-a-guitar-as-a-frame-of-reference-for-common-vocal-ranges-please/691929/4 "2014-06-29T13:48:45Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > C3 would be 5th string 3rd fret? Is that correct? That’s correct, although in guitar music that note is written as C4 (middle C). Even a lot of guitarists are unaware that the guitar is a transposing instrument, sounding one octave lower than written pitch. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-how-to-use-a-guitar-as-a-frame-of-reference-for-common-vocal-ranges-please/691929/5 "2014-06-29T13:53:30Z")
Thanks, **Zeldar**! Thanks, **Biffy**! ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-how-to-use-a-guitar-as-a-frame-of-reference-for-common-vocal-ranges-please/691929/6 "2014-06-29T14:02:24Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > That’s correct, although in guitar music that note is written as C4 (middle C). Are vocal melodies typically transposed an octave in popular songbooks? I typically see vocal melodies written on a treble clef, but from what I’m learning in this thread it seems like that should be wrong for pretty much any male vocals. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-how-to-use-a-guitar-as-a-frame-of-reference-for-common-vocal-ranges-please/691929/7 "2014-06-29T14:10:12Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > Are vocal melodies typically transposed an octave in popular songbooks? > I typically see vocal melodies written on a treble clef, but from what I’m learning in this thread it seems like that should be wrong for pretty much any male vocals. In scored music, bass and baritone parts are written on bass clef and sung as written. Tenor parts are written on treble clef and sung an octave lower. (Sometimes this is spelled out by using a treble clef with a little “8” on its tail.) In pop songbooks, they put everything in treble clef and leave it to the individual singer to fit it to his range. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-how-to-use-a-guitar-as-a-frame-of-reference-for-common-vocal-ranges-please/691929/8 "2014-06-29T14:17:15Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > Even a lot of guitarists are unaware that the guitar is a transposing instrument, sounding one octave lower than written pitch. > [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > Tenor parts are written on treble clef and sung an octave lower. > _\_ > In pop songbooks, they put everything in treble clef and leave it to the individual singer to fit it to his range. These previously unknown to me facts are at the root of a great deal of my confusion. Thank you very much. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-how-to-use-a-guitar-as-a-frame-of-reference-for-common-vocal-ranges-please/691929/9 "2014-07-01T13:18:35Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > In scored music, bass and baritone parts are written on bass clef and sung as written. Tenor parts are written on treble clef and sung an octave lower. (Sometimes this is spelled out by using a treble clef with a little “8” on its tail.) I’ve never seen tenor parts written on treble clef. And if they were, singing them an octave lower seems like it would defeat the purpose. Usually all the men’s parts are on the bass clef, even when the tenor part goes way up above the staff. | o \<– tenor * * * **o** \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ \<– baritone _ **o** _\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ \<— bass * * * * * * ETA: Remembered I have seen tenor solos written on treble clef and sung an octave lower, but that is pretty rare. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-how-to-use-a-guitar-as-a-frame-of-reference-for-common-vocal-ranges-please/691929/10 "2014-07-01T13:37:01Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > I’ve never seen tenor parts written on treble clef. And if they were, singing them an octave lower seems like it would defeat the purpose. Usually all the men’s parts are on the bass clef, even when the tenor part goes way up above the staff. > | > o \<– tenor > > * * * > > **o** \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ \<– baritone > _ **o** _\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ \<— bass > > * * * > > * * * > > ETA: Remembered I have seen tenor solos written on treble clef and sung an octave lower, but that is pretty rare. Tenor solos and tenor parts in arrangements written out in a single part to a stave (that is, not SATB on two staves) are IME almost invariably written in treble clef and understood to be sung an octave lower. Many musical instruments are also octave-transposing, including bass, descant and sopranino recorder (all an octave higher than written), piccolo (ditto), double bass (an octave lower) and a lot of brass-band parts. There is no technical reason why tenors could not sing in tenor C clef but this offers no real advantage over treble clef and just about everyone originally learns treble clef anyway. Writing tenor parts, especially tenor solos, in bass clef entails more ledger lines than is really useful.