# Tell me, tell me, Alan Keyes... what, exactly, is the "slaveholder's position"? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 10, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247 "2004-08-10T19:23:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247/1 "2004-08-10T19:23:31Z")
[http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/keyes09.html](http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/keyes09.html) Apparently, there’s no love between bruthah’s as Alan Keyes pulls a Junior Godwin, trying to thrash Barack Obama’s stance on a recent late-term abortion bill. > [@](#): > > “I would still be picking cotton if the country’s moral principles had not been shaped by the Declaration of Independence,” Keyes said. He said Obama “has broken and rejected those principles-- he has taken the slaveholder’s position.” Now, I can appreciate the power of a good emotional appeal, but this is just silly. Aside from a most excellent Toby Maguire, I’m just not seeing a direct connection between abortion and slaves. Maybe… maybe the souls of those poor fetuses get enslaved _in hell_?!? Sent to the Eternal Torture Racks? Or maybe Alan Keyes ain’t got a leg to stand on? C’mon, dude, I know you’re deucing for Jack Ryan, but that doesn’t mean you can just turd this campaign out. Put some effort into it. None of this “Preaching to the Choir” stuff… the only people that’re gonna pay a-fuckin’-tention are the people that woulda voted party-line, anyway! Ironically, slavery was an act of depriving folks of an ability to choose. Obama, who did, indeed, oppose the late-term abortion bill, said his reasoning was because it provided no provisions in the event of the mother’s life being at risk. Reasonable enough to me, bucko… certainly a far cry from chains 'n shackles. Keyes, for sullying both the name of the Master Chief’s captain as well as pulling stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid shit, I grant you the “Dumbfuck Weak-ass Senate Campaigner o’ de Year” award, ya jingo-shakin’ loudmouth prunejizz. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247/2 "2004-08-10T19:25:21Z")
… Most excellent Toby Maguire _movie_, of course, that dealt with both abortion and… oh, nevermind, I’m just gonna go back to the whole not-typing thing… ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247/3 "2004-08-10T19:37:59Z")
I think the analogy he’s trying to draw is that, just like slave holders argued that their slaves didn’t have any rights and that the slave owners should have power over the lives and deaths of their slaves, the people who were opposed to the partial birth bill argued that fetuses didn’t have any rights and that the fetus’s mothers should have power over the lives and deaths of the fetus. Whether that’s a good analogy or not is up for debate. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247/4 "2004-08-10T19:41:38Z")
> [@SPOOFE](#): > > … Most excellent Toby Maguire _movie_, of course, that dealt with both abortion and What, did the OB-GYN tell Mary Jane that the fetus had eight legs? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247/5 "2004-08-10T19:44:01Z")
I believe Keyes is referring to the phrase “all men are created equal.” The implication is that we do not grant embryos equal rights, just as the Negro slaves were not granted equal rights, lo, these many years ago. Hence, Obama is a fetus-hatin’ Uncle Tom who is morally equivalent to slaveholders in his refusal to link arms with his unborn brothers and sing “We Shall Overcome.” Quite true – we don’t grant embryos equal rights. Nor should we, in my opinion. Just call me Smon Legree. ---
**Author:** ![MrTuffPaws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@MrTuffPaws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrTuffPaws)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247/6 "2004-08-10T19:46:19Z")
If that is the case, I hope the fees for an abortion are paid up front, after all, you don’t want no woman killing her fetus until after it is paid for. Talk about a non sequitur ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247/7 "2004-08-10T19:46:14Z")
Does Keyes know \*who \* wrote the Declaration? Right, a slaveholder. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247/8 "2004-08-10T19:51:15Z")
His supporters are on official notice that they are never allowed to criticize a liberal for “playing the race card” again. Ever. Evereverever. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247/9 "2004-08-10T21:17:03Z")
> [@SPOOFE](#): > > Or maybe Alan Keyes ain’t got a leg to stand on? I thought that was Max Cleland. _—ducks, etc—_ ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247/10 "2004-08-10T21:27:31Z")
It’s almost as if Keyes wants to be creamed. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247/11 "2004-08-10T22:40:41Z")
> [@SPOOFE](#): > > …Ironically, slavery was an act of depriving folks of an ability to choose… Unless you want to look at it from the perspective of the plantation owner - who wanted the choice of which auctions to spend his money. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247/12 "2004-08-10T23:50:12Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > I think the analogy he’s trying to draw is that, just like slave holders argued that their slaves didn’t have any rights and that the slave owners should have power over the lives and deaths of their slaves, the people who were opposed to the partial birth bill argued that fetuses didn’t have any rights and that the fetus’s mothers should have power over the lives and deaths of the fetus. > > Whether that’s a good analogy or not is up for debate. Let’s just say it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247/13 "2004-08-10T23:55:15Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > Quite true – we don’t grant embryos equal rights. Nor should we, in my opinion. Just call me Smon Legree. Do you eat Smores and drink Smirnoff while listening to Smetana? 😃 Keyes is an idiot, btw. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247/14 "2004-08-11T00:09:34Z")
> [@archive guy](#): > > Keyes is an idiot, btw… Actually, Keyes is going to give Obama a run for his money. He’s as right wing as they come, but make no mistake, he’s not stupid. He won’t win, but it’s gonna be fun to watch. The comment was goffball, meant, i think, to reach out to the pubbie base. I think you’ll see the tone change once he’s gone full media press. Or not, but like i said, fun to watch. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247/15 "2004-08-11T00:10:34Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > His supporters are on official notice that they are never allowed to criticize a liberal for “playing the race card” again. Ever. Evereverever. > > Daniel It is an apt analogy that has been used for many years. Race has nothing to do with it. > [@pizzabrat](#): > > Let’s just say it’s not. Oh no, it is a perfect analogy. I have no doubt that future generations will look back on abortion as we do on slavery. Of course, hopefully, without a horrific, bloody civil war to settle the matter. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247/16 "2004-08-11T00:11:56Z")
Apropos of exactly nothing, my browser renders this thread, when it’s the top one in the Pit and I’m on the main page, as “Tell me, tell me, Alan…” and I thought it was going to be a Greenspan thing. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247/17 "2004-08-11T00:16:51Z")
i meant goofball :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247/18 "2004-08-11T00:20:00Z")
I saw that on the local news. I liked Obama’s response, which was slow and measured. You could see the wheels turning in how best to respond. He’s going to make a GREAT, very diplomatic Senator. I don’t know what else he might have said. This is just the sound bite that appeared on the news. > [@](#): > > Barack Obama: “I do suggest that he look even to members of his own party to see whether it’s appropriate to use that kind of language.” Yes, he did say “look even to members…” I played it back several times on my Tivo. Must be a lawyer-speak thing. I can’t wait to proudly cast my vote for Mr. Obama. ---
**Author:** ![MrTuffPaws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@MrTuffPaws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrTuffPaws)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247/19 "2004-08-11T00:22:07Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > I have no doubt that future generations will look back on abortion as we do on slavery You have to be shitting me. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247/20 "2004-08-11T00:29:42Z")
Shouldn’t someone remind Keyes that the country had legal slavery for the first 80 or so years of its existence? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-tell-me-alan-keyes-what-exactly-is-the-slaveholders-position/259247.md?page=2)