# Tell me why he shouldn't die, you candy-asses. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 6, 2004, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826 "2004-02-06T12:22:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Joan\_of\_Argghh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/58956e/32.png) [@Joan\_of\_Argghh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joan_of_Argghh)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2004, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826/201 "2004-02-09T22:51:01Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Jesus knew this was the true ideal when he rejected the concept of “an eye for an eye” almost 2000 years ago. Well, the context of the verse you cite means he also wants us to cut off our hands, pluck out our eyes, expect the judgment of hell if we call someone a fool (which makes this BBQ Pit a who’s who of the damned! LOL!), says you’re an adulterer just for looking, and pretty much expects perfection. No, in fact, demands perfection. It’s a great read in the context of this thread, actually. Lots of food for thought. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2004, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826/202 "2004-02-09T23:27:22Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > Actually, it’s more simple than that. It all boils down to whether you believe killing someone is wrong. Yes. I believe killing someone is wrong. I also believe imprisoning people is wrong…unless they’ve been convicted of a crime!!! Same thing with the death penalty. And on another note, I suggested that instead of the death penalty we imprison people for life, with no chance of parole, and that they be deprived of all pleasures such as t.v., newspapers, radio, art supplies, family visits and mail, etc. They deprived an innocent person of much more that this. The same people who are supposedly all for life in prison instead of the death penalty thought this was too harsh. This is why the pro-death penalty people don’t listen to the anti-death penalty crowd: they are perceived as being soft on crime, as the criticism of the alternative I suggested demonstrates. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2004, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826/203 "2004-02-09T23:30:58Z")
> [@Joan of Argghh!](#): > > Well, the context of the verse you cite means he also wants us to cut off our hands, pluck out our eyes, expect the judgment of hell if we call someone a fool (which makes this BBQ Pit a who’s who of the damned! LOL!), says you’re an adulterer just for looking, and pretty much expects perfection. No, in fact, demands perfection. It’s a great read in the context of this thread, actually. Lots of food for thought. Thanks. I’m glad you were able to glean one tiny morsel out of my entire post to heap on which to heap your impotent sarcasm. Now, why not address the rest of my points, or isn’t your leaden wit up to that ? ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826/204 "2004-02-10T01:12:53Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > BTW, what is your cite that we ever had an anti-DP judiciary? What is your cite that we even had a majority congress that was anti-DP? Diogenes, I believe that the moratorium imposed on the death penalty in light of the 1977 (approx.) Supreme Court decision was part and parcel of a growing judicial and popular revulsion to the death penalty. Certainly at that time the American public actually supported an end to the death penalty. Current support for the death penalty is something that has grown over the past 20 years because of the perception by the public at large that any sentence other than death can’t be counted upon to be fulfilled. As an example, the Son of Sam Killer, sentenced to seven consecutive life senences, is going to be up for parole within the next three years. Certainly a number of Federal judges have commuted sentences for convicted murderers on long term sentences based on good behavior in prison, while ignoring psychological reccommendations against such actions. It is my belief that the current popularity of the death penalty is a direct result of that kind of misplaced leniency. Two many people believe that prison is a merry-go-round for the convicted, and so support a death penalty as a means to guarantee some permanent solution in that case. Whether that is a moral thought process, I can’t say. Just trying to describe the shift in public views I’ve seen in the past 25 years. ---
**Author:** ![Joan\_of\_Argghh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/58956e/32.png) [@Joan\_of\_Argghh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joan_of_Argghh)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826/205 "2004-02-10T01:24:44Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > I’m glad you were able to glean one tiny morsel out of my entire post to heap on which to heap your impotent sarcasm. Now, why not address the rest of my points, or isn’t your leaden wit up to that ? Impotent? Methinks I hit the mark, and I wasn’t even trying! I think pulling quotes from scripture without context deserves a bit of tongue-in-cheek fun, but I haven’t been deliberately trying to bait you or be sarastic. I’d address the rest of your points, but now find that I just don’t care. If I said more, I’d undoubtedly cross the wide path of your disdain, vast and unavoidable as it is. ---
**Author:** ![Joan\_of\_Argghh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/58956e/32.png) [@Joan\_of\_Argghh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joan_of_Argghh)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826/206 "2004-02-10T01:31:52Z")
> [@Joan of Argghh!](#): > > If I said more, I’d undoubtedly cross the wide path of your disdain, vast and unavoidable as it is. See? That last bit was deliberate sarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826/207 "2004-02-10T14:53:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I suggest that this is misplaced. We cannot equate the numbers of deaths caused by escaped, imprisoned, or released murderers to the number of deaths caused by the state in executing an innocent man… because the murders caused by those felons are not the result of a public policy of death. Well, no, they are the result of a public policy of no death, to put it that way. But I don’t see the moral relevance of distinguishing between innocent deaths and suffering that are caused by wrongful executions, and innocent deaths and suffering that are caused by wrongful lack of executions. Especially since the number of the latter hugely exceeds the number of the former. A morally acceptable system would be one in which the minimum number of innocent people died. So far, it seems that a system that includes the death penalty is a system in which, overall, the smallest number of innocents die. Thus, a system including the option of the death penalty is the morally correct choice. The decision to exclude innocents murdered by those who should have died seems too arbitrary. Obviously, if we pretend that there are no consequences to abolition of the DP besides eliminating the remote chance that someone will be wrongfully executed, it looks like a slam dunk. But those consequences are real - 824 times more real than the theoretical possibility that someone will be given the needle after decades of appeals. > [@Bricker](#): > > By this logic, attempted murderers should also be put to death – after all, they TRIED to be murderers; only some external event prevented them from being actual murderers. And while we’re at it, how about those convicted of serious assaults, especially, with weapons? It was only a matter of luck that their victims did not die, yes? I support the death penalty for attempted murder, and for some other crimes as well. I am not sure of the distinctions between attempted murder and assault with intent to kill, but I don’t know of any immediately obvious moral distinctions. > [@Bricker](#): > > No. No, that’s the wrong way to look at it. If we execute an innocent, we - society - is the active agent in causing death. I don’t see that this makes much difference, especially to those who are murdered by people who should be dead. An innocent death is just as bad when caused by the state’s failure to fulfill the demands of justice. And I cannot see how 824 deaths is not lots worse than a death that, so far, exists only in theory. If we act, an innocent may die, even though we take every possible precaution to avoid it. If we fail to act, many more innocents will die, and have died. What is the morally correct thing to do? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826/208 "2004-02-10T16:28:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I support the death penalty for attempted murder, and for some other crimes as well. I am not sure of the distinctions between attempted murder and assault with intent to kill, but I don’t know of any immediately obvious moral distinctions. This may be the crux of our disagreement here, and where we’ll simply have to agree to disagree. If you believe the death penalty is appropriate punishment for attempted murder, for aggravated assault, for crimes that could have resulted in death although they did not, then we simply place different values on the lives of felons. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826/209 "2004-02-10T18:17:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Hamlet: > > I think there’s a comment to be made here. Do you find it at all disturbing that an appellant can have his _Strickland_ claims procedurally barred, and then his substantive claims dismissed because they weren’t fully developed in the record? Not saying that what happened here, but it does happen, and it strikes me as an absurd Catch-22. > > - Rick While I may not see the relevance here, I can indeed envision cases where having a poor attorney represent you on appeal and doing a very poor job of it, will cause a great deal of problems for a defendant to get his claims considered in subsequent appeals. So, yes, I think it can work to keep out valuable information and argument. However, it is my understanding that the defendant can file actual innocence and newly discovered evidence claims regardless of the original appeal. I may be wrong, I haven’t done an appellate brief in, oh…never. However much these problems arise in regular appeals, I think in death penalty cases, appellate judges are much more likely to hear the evidence. Most of the death penalty opinions are exhaustive in their considerations, and many will out and out say that they shouldn’t consider the defendant’s argument, but will reach it on the merits anyway. It’s one of the special unspoken concerns in death penalty appeals that may not hold for non-capital cases. And it’s one of the main reasons I have a high degree of respect and certainty regarding the lack of the execution of innocents. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826/210 "2004-02-10T18:28:23Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > However, it is my understanding that the defendant can file actual innocence and newly discovered evidence claims regardless of the original appeal. I may be wrong, I haven’t done an appellate brief in, oh…never. > . In Virginia, the rule is 21 days after final judgement is entered. After 21 days, any additional evidence is procedurally barred. (The state legislature’s Judiciary Committee recently voted to remove that limitation for DNA evidence only; the bar against any additional evidence remains). Admittedly, Virginia has perhaps the toughest such rule in the nation. But we also execute more people than a lot of other states. Does that cause you to reconsider, just a bit? - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826/211 "2004-02-10T18:56:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In Virginia, the rule is 21 days after final judgement is entered. After 21 days, any additional evidence is procedurally barred. (The state legislature’s Judiciary Committee recently voted to remove that limitation for DNA evidence only; the bar against any additional evidence remains). > > Admittedly, Virginia has perhaps the toughest such rule in the nation. But we also execute more people than a lot of other states. > > Does that cause you to reconsider, just a bit? > > - Rick Reconsider how draconian Virginia is? Yes. I find that rule, as it stands now, to be quite a problem. I’d actually support the proposal listed in [this story](http://www.roanoke.com/roatimes/news/story140309.html), which would allow for extension of Rule 21. God knows those damn appellate public defenders don’t have nearly enough to do already. Are there capital cases in Virginia where the courts have not considered actual evidence of innocence? Has the State of Virginia executed an innocent person? I think those are the more valuable questions. I dislike generalizations about capital punishment, because, to my mind, justice should be done on a case by case basis. That is why I’m not avidly for the capital punishment, and why I’m not avidly against it. I do think it can have a place in the criminal justice system. So, to answer, yes it concerns me. Yes, I think they should change the 21 day rule. However, I don’t think it has led to the execution of an innocent, which has been my point in posting to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826/212 "2004-02-10T19:41:24Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Are there capital cases in Virginia where the courts have not considered actual evidence of innocence? Or anywhere else, for that matter? IOW, how common is it that the defense has iron-clad evidence of actual innocence, but the appeals court simply declines to examine the evidence? For instance, has any court refused to examine DNA evidence of innocence? IANAL, but it seems to me from reading cites from death penalty opponents, that most of the new “evidence” they are always touting is testimony from people years after the fact, or evidence pinning the murder on someone who is conveniently dead and cannot refute the accusations. Of course, this could be because new evidence has been located. It could also be because the defense has had eight or ten years to ask enough leading questions, and massage the memories of whoever they can find who is willing to swear to something now that they wouldn’t swear to then. Or they are simply re-presenting evidence that couldn’t pass muster at the original trial. Perhaps I am naive, but I find it hard to believe that many of those executed over the last thirty years or so had obvious proof of their innocence that would convince even the most bloodthirstly, and had the judge say, “Tough cookies - you should have said something about this evidence eleven years ago. Say your prayers, sucker - it’s a short shrift and a long rope for you regardless”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826/213 "2004-02-10T20:46:50Z")
> **[Newsmax.com - Breaking news from around the globe](https://www.newsmax.com)** > > Newsmax.com reports today’s news headlines, live news stream, news videos from Americans and global readers > seeking the latest in current events, politics, U.S., world news, health, finance, and more. Sometimes the few can decide whats right. Screw the jury system. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826/214 "2004-02-10T21:37:57Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Are there capital cases in Virginia where the courts have not considered actual evidence of innocence? Has the State of Virginia executed an innocent person? I think those are the more valuable questions. I dislike generalizations about capital punishment, because, to my mind, justice should be done on a case by case basis. That is why I’m not avidly for the capital punishment, and why I’m not avidly against it. I do think it can have a place in the criminal justice system. I again direct your attention to Roger Keith Coleman, who certainly suffered from some procedural hurdles. His state _habeas_ claim was dismissed for being filed late, and was not considered on the merits, which in turn precluded federal review. _Coleman v. Thompson I_, 501 U.S. 722 (1991). Because there was no constitutional right to an attorney in state PCR, he could not claim constitutionally ineffective assistance of counsel. His claims of actual innocence were never given a full hearing. See Blackmun’s dissent at _Coleman v. Thompson II_, 504 U.S. 188 (1992). **Shodan** : In Coleman’s trial, the forensic expert testified that the sperm sample found in the victim could have come from 2% of the population - Coleman being part of that 2%. Since then, DNA techniques have advanced dramatically. No court has permitted the material to be re-tested. In fact, Virginia has refused any post-execution proceedings or testing – see, for example, the cases of Derek Barnabei or Joseph O’Dell… The main evidence against Coleman was NOT the DNA, which science was in its infancy during the trial, but rather the “consistent hair sample” and the testimony of a jailhouse informant. There has been no DNA testing beyond the simple “within 2%.” Since we now routinely expect DNA tests to conclusively identify the accused - or exonerate him - it’s simply wrong to suggest that DNA tests done on Coleman’s case mean anything. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826/215 "2004-02-10T22:02:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The main evidence against Coleman was NOT the DNA, which science was in its infancy during the trial, but rather the “consistent hair sample” and the testimony of a jailhouse informant. There has been no DNA testing beyond the simple “within 2%.” Since we now routinely expect DNA tests to conclusively identify the accused - or exonerate him - it’s simply wrong to suggest that DNA tests done on Coleman’s case mean anything. Well - I think it is an overstatement to say that the DNA tests mean nothing. At the very least, they indicate that the chance of his innocence is one in fifty - not necessarily probative in and of themselves, but a very long way from exoneration. I thought DNA testing was not performed until after his conviction. I also understand there was other evidence indicative of guilt - the murder victim was Coleman’s sister-in-law, his pants legs were wet when he was arrested (he crossed a river to get to his sister-in-law), and some other stuff I don’t recall. My understanding of the timetable was that DNA testing was supposed to clear him after his conviction. It did not, but provided another piece of evidence that he was guilty as Cain. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826/216 "2004-02-10T22:08:55Z")
> [@Joan of Argghh!](#): > > and pretty much expects perfection. No, in fact, demands perfection. It’s a great read in the context of this thread, actually. Lots of food for thought. Thanks. Whenever someone says that Jesus and/or CHristianity demands perfection, I’m always confident that they know what they’re talking about. :rolleyes: Never mind the “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” or “forgive your brother seventy times seven times”. You’ve got it alllll figured out, Joanie. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826/217 "2004-02-10T22:34:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I again direct your attention to Roger Keith Coleman, who certainly suffered from some procedural hurdles. His state _habeas_ claim was dismissed for being filed late, and was not considered on the merits, which in turn precluded federal review. _Coleman v. Thompson I_, 501 U.S. 722 (1991). Because there was no constitutional right to an attorney in state PCR, he could not claim constitutionally ineffective assistance of counsel. > > His claims of actual innocence were never given a full hearing. See Blackmun’s dissent at _Coleman v. Thompson II_, 504 U.S. 188 (1992). > > **Shodan** : > > In Coleman’s trial, the forensic expert testified that the sperm sample found in the victim could have come from 2% of the population - Coleman being part of that 2%. Since then, DNA techniques have advanced dramatically. No court has permitted the material to be re-tested. In fact, Virginia has refused any post-execution proceedings or testing – see, for example, the cases of Derek Barnabei or Joseph O’Dell… > > The main evidence against Coleman was NOT the DNA, which science was in its infancy during the trial, but rather the “consistent hair sample” and the testimony of a jailhouse informant. There has been no DNA testing beyond the simple “within 2%.” Since we now routinely expect DNA tests to conclusively identify the accused - or exonerate him - it’s simply wrong to suggest that DNA tests done on Coleman’s case mean anything. > > - Rick From the latest opinion regarding the newspaper’s attempts to get the DNA tested: > [@](#): > > Eight years after his conviction, Coleman petitioned the trial court to permit DNA testing of the biological material. The trial court, over the objection of the Commonwealth, granted Coleman’s petition, but required that a portion of the material be preserved for testing by the Commonwealth. The tests (“PCR DNA” testing) were conducted by Dr. Edward T. Blake (“Dr.Blake”), of Forensic Science Associates in Richmond, California. The test results did not exclude Coleman and 2% of the Caucasian population as the source of the biological material. The trial court ordered that physical custody of the remaining biological material remain with Dr. Blake until further order of the court. Later, evidence offered at a hearing on a second petition for habeas corpus in the federal courts utilized the results of the “PCR DNA” testing and the ABO blood type testing. The court stated that the “evidence showed that Coleman and the primary donor had ABO blood type B, which occurs in 10% of the population. When combined with the “PCR DNA” testing, the ABO narrows the percentage of the population with these characteristics to .2%.” Coleman v. Thompson, 798 F.Supp. 1209, 1213-14 (W.D.Va.1992). The United States District Court for the Western District of Virginia concluded that the additional testing “significantly bolster[s] the jury’s finding of guilt.” From the Supreme Court opinion you referred to: > [@](#): > > As the District Court below observed, this is now the 12th round of judicial review in a murder case which began 11 years ago. Yet despite having had 11 years to produce exculpatory evidence, Coleman has produced what, in the words of the District Court, does not even amount to a "colorable showing of ‘actual’ " innocence. Civ. Action No. 92-0352-R (WD Va., May 12, 1992), p. 19. We are hardly well positioned to second-guess the District Court’s factual conclusion–we certainly have no basis for concluding that Coleman has produced “substantial evidence that he may be innocent.” Post, at 1846 (emphasis added). Indeed, a good deal of Coleman’s effort in this latest round is devoted to an attempt to undermine an expert’s genetic analysis that further implicated him in the crime–an analysis conducted after trial at Coleman’s request under the supervision of the Commonwealth’s courts. > Contrary to the dissent’s characterization, Coleman’s claim is far from “substantially identical” to that of Leonel Herrera, see Herrera v. Collins, No. 91-7328, cert. granted, 502 U.S. 1085, 112 S.Ct. 1074, 117 L.Ed.2d 279 (1992). In Herrera the District Court concluded that the evidence of innocence warranted further inquiry. \*189 See 954 F.2d 1029 (CA5 1992). Here, in contrast, the District Court reviewed Coleman’s claim of innocence and rejected it on the merits. It seems to me that Coleman raised the issue of his “actual innocence,” and had them repeatedly heard, and ruled on by the courts. The Supreme Court stated that the evidence and speculations that he did have to present, was so weak, so pathetic, that it could not even raise a colorable claim of actual innocence. And that evidence was attacking the testing THAT HE ORIGINALLY ASKED FOR. You are correct that the federal court did not hear his appeal from his original habeus petition after he lost his appeals. However, my reading indicates that his habeus claims were indeed heard, and rejected, after a two day evidentiary hearing. But nothing you’ve said, nothing you’ve shown me, has indicated in any degree that Coleman’s claims of innocence have any merit whatsoever. I’m sorry, but I’m not going to be persuaded that because the federal court did not review his first habeus petition that that indicates that there was some kind of magic evidence, some kind of exculpatory information, that was out there but never heard. Putting aside the arguments over Coleman’s mistreatment by the Rules of Appellate Procedure, do you honestly believe in your heart of hearts, that Coleman did not rape and murder Wanda McCoy? ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826/218 "2004-02-10T23:43:37Z")
I’m not familiar with the case, but…the main evidence against him was a consistent hair sample? From what I’ve read, hair analysis is only slighty more accurate than phrenology. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826/219 "2004-02-11T01:40:44Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > [http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/2/9/141541.shtml](http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/2/9/141541.shtml) > > Sometimes the few can decide whats right. > **[Newsmax.com - Breaking news from around the globe](https://www.newsmax.com)** > > Newsmax.com reports today’s news headlines, live news stream, news videos from Americans and global readers > seeking the latest in current events, politics, U.S., world news, health, finance, and more. No shit. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826/220 "2004-02-11T04:20:38Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Putting aside the arguments over Coleman’s mistreatment by the Rules of Appellate Procedure, do you honestly believe in your heart of hearts, that Coleman did not rape and murder Wanda McCoy? To what extent must I be convinced? If I had to guess, I’d say it’s much more likely than not that he did it. I’d say there’s clear and convincing evidence that he did it. From where I sit, though, I have trouble saying there is certainty beyond a reasonable doubt. I am troubled by my own failure to notice the distinction between “2%” and “.2%” - an order of magnitude that makes a huge difference. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-he-shouldnt-die-you-candy-asses/227826.md?page=12)