# Tell me why my son should not join the Marines **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 9, 2006, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622 "2006-03-09T01:05:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622/81 "2006-03-10T09:37:34Z")
_The services and the VA aren’t getting the job done regarding the mental and physical health of our veterans. To do so would be an admission that they don’t know what the fuck they’re doing. Our society is filling up with like minded vets who have no idea how to deal with their hostility._ altho it works best when applied before the problem has gelled, lysergic acid is, once again, the remedy of choice… ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622/82 "2006-03-10T09:47:01Z")
_if his favorite activity was watching TV, you gotta problem!_ hey, someone is getting paid to do those tv guide summaries–(beats the shit out of the marines, let me tell you.) ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622/83 "2006-03-10T13:29:59Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Ahhhh, the military crossed with a resort. > > I was in Air Force ROTC in college before I moved on to other things but it wasn’t because I didn’t like it. The Air Force is pretty cushy as far as the military goes and the chance of death should be low as well. The regular Navy is another option and he probably wouldn’t be sent to Iraq on land. Unless he becomes a Hospital Corpsman and is transfered to the Marines. It happens. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622/84 "2006-03-10T14:06:39Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > He will earn sub-Minimum Wage. On top of that, he will also be provided with living quarters and either free food or money to purchase his own. > [@](#): > > He will go through the worst experience of his life (Basic Training), and _then_, he will go through a _worse one_ (War). As mentioned by another poster, some individuals consider BCT the best experience of their lives. I, for one, still have friends whom I met in BCT. > [@](#): > > He runs a serious risk of being injured, or crippled for life, **out of combat** , during Training. Certain other jobs also include inherent dangers: firefighting, police officer, etc. [quoteAfter all, he will be around people using weapons & explosives who _don’t yet know how to use weapons & explosives_, his fellow recruits.[/quote] That’s, simply, a load of crap. He will be around people who know both how to use those weapons and how to train those not familiar with those weapons. When he and his fellow recruits have access to those weapons, they will be strictly monitored as regards safety and usage of those weapons. > [@](#): > > Everybody & his dog will have a license to run his life, & to dog his @ss. This, too, is, simply, a load of crap. Only those individuals who are in legal positions of authority over him will have the authority to direct his life, and that only within the law. > [@](#): > > He will be obliged to kill people that he has no personal quarrel with, some of them innocent of any wrongdoing; they merely being in the wrong place at the wrong time. That’s known as combat and is certainly something to consider. > [@](#): > > If he doesn’t like it, he can’t quit. If he tries to quit anyway, they shoot him as a deserter. Actually, there are a few legitimate methods of terminating one’s enlistment early. > [@](#): > > If he joins, & something goes wrong, _absolutely nobody can help him_, not even you. Untrue. His Chain-of-Command, the Chaplain, and the Legal Officer are a few examples of someone who can help him. Another example is his Congressman. > [@](#): > > Suggest that he take a trip to Alaska for a year. He could get a job in the oilfields. That pays well, & is quite manly. Does that job have as many benefits as the Armed Forces provide? After all, not everyone who joins the military is sent to Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622/85 "2006-03-10T14:53:34Z")
> [@FilmGeek](#): > > If he’s thinking of the GI bill to get him through college, he might want to think hard. A friend’s brother is finding the bureaucracy to get the money for college so frustrating he’s thinking of not going through the paperwork to get the money. I found the paperwork drill to be quite easy. Both my community college and my university had a Veterans Assistance office that was responsible for helping me with that paperwork. The university’s financial office did manage to screw up the payment but fixed it quickly. I admit I was a bit cranky about that when it happened but they did fix it. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622/86 "2006-03-10T15:04:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Everybody & his dog will have a license to run his life, & to dog his @ss. > [@Monty](#): > > This, too, is, simply, a load of crap. Only those individuals who are in legal positions of authority over him will have the authority to direct his life, and that only within the law. Rubbish. Deny, if you can, that any senior non-com worth his salt can get around those regs, if he wants to. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622/87 "2006-03-10T15:18:19Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > He runs a serious risk of being injured, or crippled for life, **out of combat** , during Training. After all, he will be around people using weapons & explosives who _don’t yet know how to use weapons & explosives_, his fellow recruits. Former Marine here. You’re talking about what are called Class B mishaps (“Permanent partial disability or three or more persons hospitalized as inpatients”) Do you have numbers on these? “Serious risk” is quite an exaggeration in my opinion. As for Iraq: The current end strength of the Marines is 180,000. Of that number, only 23,000 (12.8%) are in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622/88 "2006-03-10T15:21:22Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > I’m sorry that some of the current population of Iraq are too short sighted to see or understand the positive changes that will begin to unfold once all this mess is over. If I go over there and die, it is not for the Iraqis living today. It’s for their children, their children’s children, and the countless generations of Iraqis who will live in a free and democratic country that we helped provide for them. It is their right, just as it is the right of all future generations of Americans. I, for one, consider that worth dieing for. There isn’t ever going to be a free and democratic Iraq, certainly not for those future generations that you speak of. Soon as the US leaves, one group of thugs or another will take control and there will be a new Saddam in charge. Democracy is not going to work everywhere and we should stop acting like it can. The people are dying there for diddly-squat. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622/89 "2006-03-10T15:30:59Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Rubbish. > > Deny, if you can, that any senior non-com worth his salt can get around those regs, if he wants to. :dubious: \*\*Bosda \*\* you are wrong. Forget Sr. Non-coms I got officers in trouble for issuing unlawful orders and I was a lowly E4, 3rd Class Petty Officer. Where do you get this crap? Were you in the service? Did you allow yourself to be pushed around? Are you just repeating urban legends on a board dedicated to fighting ignorance? Most of what you are saying just isn’t reality. Try sitting back and asking some questions about military life and obligations, somewhere along the way you got some bad information. You object to military service, I understand and support that, but object for the right reasons. Jim ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622/90 "2006-03-10T15:35:47Z")
I want to thank everyone who has responded. I even got my son to start reading this thread last night, but he was on his way out the door and didn’t get too far. I’ll try to see if he can read it all the way through today. The info is great. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622/91 "2006-03-10T15:39:57Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > He runs a serious risk of being injured, or crippled for life, out of combat, during Training. I found some [statistics](http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/statistics/marines/tables.htm). Mishaps that result in “fatality or permanent total disability” are Class A mishaps. **Marine Corps, Fiscal Year 2005** Total operational Class A mishaps: 36. –Operational Class A mishaps that occurred in training (all training mishaps are operational): 5 Total operational Class A mishap fatalities: 56 Total non-operational Class A mishaps: 55. Total non-operational Class A mishap fatalities: 55 Operational Class A Mishap Rate: 23.08 per 100,000 personnel [Meanwhile](http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/), the highway fatality rate in the U.S. in 2003 was 21.86 per 100,000 licensed drivers. Mamas, don’t let your boys grow up to be drivers! ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622/92 "2006-03-10T15:46:04Z")
> [@What Exit?](#): > > \*\*Bosda \*\* you are wrong. Forget Sr. Non-coms I got officers in trouble for issuing unlawful orders and I was a lowly E4, 3rd Class Petty Officer. > Where do you get this crap? > Were you in the service? > Did you allow yourself to be pushed around? > Are you just repeating urban legends on a board dedicated to fighting ignorance? > Most of what you are saying just isn’t reality. Try sitting back and asking some questions about military life and obligations, somewhere along the way you got some bad information. You object to military service, I understand and support that, but object for the right reasons. > > Jim I enlisted in the Navy. During Basic, one DI had me doing push-ups. **On broken glass**. Another DI stopped him, afer a while, but the first one was never punished. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622/93 "2006-03-10T15:53:55Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > There isn’t ever going to be a free and democratic Iraq, certainly not for those future generations that you speak of. Soon as the US leaves, one group of thugs or another will take control and there will be a new Saddam in charge. Democracy is not going to work everywhere and we should stop acting like it can. The people are dying there for diddly-squat. And as long as millions of voters share your cynical, negative, and demotivating views, you’re right. Because as soon as enough of you bitch long enough, politicians will be coerced into pulling out early and then guess what - you can say you were right all along. If the public opinions and attitudes were different in the 60s and 70s, then millions of Vietnamese could be seeing the same luxary, prosperity, and freedom that millions of South Koreans enjoy. Instead, they’ve lived in fith, oppression and poverity for the last four decades. But hey… as long as we’re comfortable over here in the states - right? Vietnam was not ‘unwinnable’. The American public just gave up. That lack of support caused political pressure to leave. And that’s what you people will cause to happen in Iraq. Had Americans at that time possessed the foresight and pride to see that democracy and freedom _anywhere_ is worth fighting for, then politicians would have put more effort into Vietnam and the military could have accomplished the mission they set out to do. But no. They gradually pulled out when they should have sent MORE, and ultimately we left. And look what the fuck happened. Because Americans thought their children shouldn’t die for _other_ people. South Vietnam could have mirrored South Korea. It’s unfortunate for millions of people that we left. We could make a difference if you people would just give it a frickin chance. Everyone seems to have given up after there wasn’t a complete government with three branches and social security in the first year. That shit takes time. As long as we stick with this, we _will_ make a difference. If we pull out due to political pressure - pressure caused by voters with negative, pessimistic attitudes - then, unfortunately. your little prediction will come true. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622/94 "2006-03-10T15:56:22Z")
Wh is everyone talking about Iraq? The Marines are by and large not repeatedly storming Iraq. It’s more likely that your son will end up storming Iran. Personally, I’m not sure why in this day and age, we still have both Army and Marines. The methods of deployment that we have are too many, and the number of specializations within the army is growing and growing. I think it’s increasingly more of a pride thing than an operational need for the distinction. > [@](#): > > Show me a job that an average 18 year old can get right out of highschool that even comes close to offering the money and benefits of the military. Hey, if Radio Shack clerks got oodles of our tax money poured on their heads, that job would have a lot of benefits too. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622/95 "2006-03-10T16:00:27Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > I want to thank everyone who has responded. I even got my son to start reading this thread last night, but he was on his way out the door and didn’t get too far. I’ll try to see if he can read it all the way through today. The info is great. Active duty Coastie here, with 15 years in. If you or your son has any questions about the Coast Guard and want the straight dope, gimme a shout. E-mail’s in the profile and I’d be happy to help out. ---
**Author:** ![EEMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a6a055/32.png) [@EEMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EEMan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622/96 "2006-03-10T16:02:18Z")
Seems a lot of people have a lot of misconceptions about the Military in general… and the Marines specifically… There has also been a lot of ‘truth’ in the thread as well… mostly from people who have served… I am a Former Marine… and I can thank them for helping me find my way… Prior to joining the Marine Corps I more or less was asked to leave a college I was attending (mostly because I didn’t care enough to show up for class)… I had very little self dicipline and a very selfish attitude… After leaving the Marine Corps… I got my BSEE… as well as several post graduate degrees… not because I was any smarter, but because I understood what I could do … The Marine Corps (verses the Army, Navy, or Air Force) is an attacking force… there is not enough manpower to be an effective defensive nor holding force (the Army is very good at that). As such they are more likely to be placed in an active battlezone… a secondary effect of that, is every Marine (from cooks to infantry) has Combat Training (beyond that of Basic training/BootCamp)… they also do the most work with the least amount of equipment… (smallest budget per man)… I know even when I was in the AirWing (HAWK Missile Tech) we trained several times a year in basic infantry tactics… from how to do a patrol to ambushes (so that we were ‘ready’ to be deployed to a ‘hotzone’ (active combat area)). As I understand this is NOT typical of the other branches (as their ‘rear’ is not as likely to be in an active combat zone) Bootcamp… that is the time where you are supposed to learn a few things… 1. To obey orders (and a lot of emphasis is put on LAWFUL orders… you are NOT supposed to obey unlawful orders…) this is one of those things that people point to and say ‘see brainwashing’; in truth… it is time you learn to give yourself to the group… your leader tells you do to something… you do it… because in combat there is no time to second guess if you should rush the ambush (the proper response) or to run away (the wrong response… very easy to be shot while running away)… this does NOT mean they are turned into unthinking automatons… in fact the oppisite is the truth, they simple redirect their thinking to accomplishing the task layed out… there is also (as I mentioned before) a LOT of time spent on what constitutes an ‘unlawful’ order… and the results of obeying one… (you can not be ordered to shoot an unarmed man… or civilians… or the like) 2. To see what you can really do… most of us; have no idea where our limits are, and we tend to stop ourselves LONG before we really need to stop… This was one of my BIG issues. BootCamp teaches you that you can do more than you thought… and when you finally hit your limit… what it REALLY feels like…and how to go beyond that limit (with training)… this is why such a large percentage of Fortune 500 CEO’s are former military (many of which are former Marines)… they KNOW they have more to give, and don’t give up as easily… 3. To learn the basics of military structure … that is important in any job… 4. Basic military skills (and I do mean BASIC)… you will learn some simple (but fundimental) skills in bootcamp… but you learn MOST of your military skills AFTER bootcamp… 5. Pride… Pride in oneself, appearence, stature, honor… in their country… in their Corps… this is what most people ‘see’ from someone when they come back from Bootcamp… the major ‘change’… once accomplishing somehting so challenging and knowing you can ‘do it’… it gives you a self worth, that frankly I’m not sure where else you will find… Now back to our current war… We have had ~2500 total casualties across all allies… ~2300 of which have been US troops of one brand or another (this includes all accidents as well as combat deaths)… we have been there ~1000 days… so about 2.5 per day (as a rough average)… we have had about ~300,000 to ~500,000 troops in Iraq at any given time… so we are talking about ~.0008% to .0005% chance of death in a combat area… I don’t have a good estimate of what your chance of dying each day is… but i’m guessing it is in that range… we have ~43 people per day killed by drunk drivers (not all fatal car accidents JUST drunk drivers)… which is about .000007% chance per day of dying by drunk drivers… As far as the number of troops being sent where… I served during the Clinton years… and I was in 3 differnt regional battlegrounds (I was the exception not the rule), my buddies who are still in, have been in 2 regional battlegrounds (Iraq and Afganistan)… we had a higher mortality rate in Somlia and heck that was during ‘peacetime’… so the current situation isn’t all that different (though we would like to forget about our past… as is our nature) ---
**Author:** ![EEMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a6a055/32.png) [@EEMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EEMan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622/97 "2006-03-10T16:08:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Personally, I’m not sure why in this day and age, we still have both Army and Marines. The methods of deployment that we have are too many, and the number of specializations within the army is growing and growing. I think it’s increasingly more of a pride thing than an operational need for the distinction. You are not the first person to believe that… that has been a major arguement since WWI… but the sheer size of the Army prevents a ‘Marine like’ group to exist… That is NOT to say that the Army isn’t a great fighting force (they are)… or are they inferior to the USMC in ANY way (they aren’t)… but they are different; different attitudes… diffrent training… different philosphies… Time and again it has been proven that we need both groups… Marines can NOT hold ground… can’t be done… just not enough Marines to do it… the Army MUST train a significant portion of their troops to be Defensive… or at least Defensive in nature… The Marines are purely offensive (and any use of them otherwise has ALWAYS been an utter failure)… but you can’t train a large group (like the Army) the way you train Marines… the closest groups between the Army and Marines are the Rangers (significant sized force) and the Marines… but the type of jobs they undertake are different… their attitudes are different… their gear is different… they both have their place… And don’t worry… the USMC is not a seperate group… they are a Division of the Navy (that is why there isn’t a Sec of the Marines)… ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622/98 "2006-03-10T16:09:49Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > And as long as millions of voters share your cynical, negative, and demotivating views, you’re right. Because as soon as enough of you bitch long enough, politicians will be coerced into pulling out early and then guess what - you can say you were right all along. If the public opinions and attitudes were different in the 60s and 70s, then millions of Vietnamese could be seeing the same luxary, prosperity, and freedom that millions of South Koreans enjoy. Instead, they’ve lived in fith, oppression and poverity for the last four decades. But hey… as long as we’re comfortable over here in the states - right? Vietnam was not ‘unwinnable’. The American public just gave up. That lack of support caused political pressure to leave. And that’s what you people will cause to happen in Iraq. > Had Americans at that time possessed the foresight and pride to see that democracy and freedom _anywhere_ is worth fighting for, then politicians would have put more effort into Vietnam and the military could have accomplished the mission they set out to do. But no. They gradually pulled out when they should have sent MORE, and ultimately we left. And look what the fuck happened. Because Americans thought their children shouldn’t die for _other_ people. South Vietnam could have mirrored South Korea. It’s unfortunate for millions of people that we left. > We could make a difference if you people would just give it a frickin chance. > Everyone seems to have given up after there wasn’t a complete government with three branches and social security in the first year. That shit takes time. As long as we stick with this, we _will_ make a difference. If we pull out due to political pressure - pressure caused by voters with negative, pessimistic attitudes - then, unfortunately. your little prediction will come true. Oh, is that the sort of pop historical defense mechanism they teach you in order to cope? South Vietnam could have worked if the South Vietnamese hadn’t faced a choice between a bunch of murderous facists and a bunch of murderous facists who offered them stuff. We lost that war not because of American attitudes at home, but because we lost the Vietnamese people early on and ever more steadily. But, no, according to Mr. Historian here, it was all caused by psychic waves of negativity from hippies. And poverty? Damn, you’re right. There was no poverty or dirt living under the French, and it would have been quickly eradicated after the war! No, the Vietcong brought all the dirt and filth with them. Right? Making a difference: that’s what it’s all about! That’s why we rushed in to East Timor and Darfur and Rwanda and… Oh wait. Nope. Strike that. Reverse it. IF our motives and interests were really good in Vietnam or Iraq, then we might have some reasonable hope of success. But our motives and purposes in Iraq are a PR afterthought, a sloppy and poorly planned attempt to salvage a shinning Bush legacy out of an intelligence fuckup and an otherwise huge tactical misstep in the war on terror. Don’t believe me? In all the world, there are many many places that could use some demorcacy creation. Why aren’t we there? Because Iraq was just where we happened to be, nto a place we picked because its people needed help (and they did). Its democratization and liberation were afterthoughts, and things that so little planning of competance were put into that the fuckups were almost all pre-predicted. ---
**Author:** ![EEMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a6a055/32.png) [@EEMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EEMan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622/99 "2006-03-10T16:14:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Why aren’t we there? Because Iraq was just where we happened to be, nto a place we picked because its people needed help (and they did). Honestly (if we are to be honest here that is)… we are Iraq because Sadaam was a nut job, who proved over and over he had the will to use WMD’s… and gave us an excuse to go in… If Iran gives us an excuse, would we go in there too? Perhaps… but that doesn’t take away from the fact that the people of Iraq DO need us now… if we pull out, it only hurts THEM ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622/100 "2006-03-10T16:17:04Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Its democratization and liberation were afterthoughts, and things that so little planning of competance were put into that the fuckups were almost all pre-predicted. IMO, that doesn’t make it any less noble or important. You’re right, there’s dozens of places around the globe that we are ignoring. And there isn’t one among them that I wouldn’t proudly fight and die for. Whenever it becomes politically important enough, or economically beneficial enough or whatever other planning considerations our leaders go through… whenever they finally say “hey, we should go here”. I’ll raise my hand and ask to help. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-why-my-son-should-not-join-the-marines/347622.md?page=6)