Tell me why my son should not join the Marines

Great Debates
141

I was a Marine for 4 years, from 1971 to 1975. I was an avionics technician which was a “critical MOS”, meaning it’s hard to find people who are thusly trainable. After basic training and 9 months of electronics schools, my usual work was in an air-conditioned trailer with an armed guard constantly patrolling outside.

I could’ve collected a large bonus and a promotion for reenlisting, but I was not tempted. It would’ve been inevitable that I’d have to spend another year in Iwakuni, Japan, which was one of only 3 possible duty stations for people in my highly specialized job.

Imagine living in a building which was a prison prior to the U.S. occupation, in a 36 by 36 foot room with 23 other guys. The country is too expensive to do much besides stay on or around the base and get drunk during off-hours. There is a crematorium upwind and a nasty smell in the air almost constantly, with human ashes falling. To make life even worse, I was farmed out to the supply department to be the liaison between supply and avionics. I never had to work with a worse group of slackers and morons before or since.

If I had it to do over again I’d join the Air Force, which has far & away the better food and living quarters.

When I was in, pay was slightly better in other Services because the USMC didn’t give members a “uniform allowance” to pay for replacement uniforms (the initial issue in boot camp is free) and cleaning/pressing). If we wanted dress blues, we had to pay for them ourselves.

BTW, I never used an illegal drug before I was in electronics school in Millington, Tennessee.

142

Hey **samclem **, give us an update. What is your son doing?

Jim

143

Sorry to not get back until now. You guys have all been great.

I’m afraid that my son has pretty well decided on being a Marine. Partly because of his friend joining, partly because of his personality.

I got him to read some of this thread, but not all. A 19 year-old pretty well has an attention span of micro-seconds when a parent is talking. I’m sure this is about to change. :slight_smile:

The best thing that this thread has done is to reassure his mother and me that he’s probably gonna be safer that we feared at first, at least that’s what the odds are. I understand about Post-traumatic stress. But we’ll deal with life as it comes.

I can’t tell you how much I appreciate every response to this thread. It means a lot.

I have an almost-16 year old, and believe me, I’ll have him read this thread, post by post. Maybe I can implant something about choices in his brain before he turns 18.

144

I realize it’s not what you wanted, but I hope you won’t think me rude if I offer you my congratulations. If your son goes through with joining the Marines, he’ll be serving our country. And while no service is easy, his will be amongst the most challenging. That’s certainly worthy of my thanks. And raising a son who has such a well-developed sense of honor, service, and sacrifice is very good reflection on his parents.

Regardless of what he ends up doing, please give my best to your son.

145

That is really well said, I would like to second it.

Good Luck and I hope the 16 year old makes a decision easier on his parents.
Jim

146

General Anthony Zinni and Major Michael Mori both came up through the ranks of the Marine Corps. And two more fierce opponents of the current US administration are not to be found.

So here’s a prayer that your son can find the makings of a hero in these proud men.

147

I have the honor of actually knowing Gen. Zinni (through my uncle); and he is an American hero in every sense of the phrase.

I would like to add my congratulations to your son, as well as my thanks. I know it is scary for any parent when their children join the Military (and it should be), but he will become a new man, one able to handle everything that life hands to him.

Semper Fi

148

I think you’ll find that you’ll be very proud of him.

149

Here’s an article written by the father of a soldier - from the Washington Post

150

Sam, you wanted advice on how to persuade your son NOT to join the marines. I’m not sure how helpful it is to get comments from ex-soldiers saying what a wonderful time they had. I’ll offer some thoughts that might perhaps give your son reason to think again.

First of all, set him an excercise. Have him list every conflict that America has been involved in from WW1 to the present. For each one, he should write a short essay, just two or three paragraphs, stating why America got involved, what they were fighting for, and his opinion whether it was, or was not morally justified.

When he’s done that point out to him that if he joins the military he will give up the right to make these moral distinctions. He will be TOLD which causes he will fight for, and have no say in the matter whatsoever. Probably he won’t be sent to Iraq. But doubtless there will be another grubby little war in two years, and another two years after that. The next president of the USA might be a shitheel that makes George W look like St Francis of Assisi. The president might take America into a series of stupid and pointless wars. Your son will be required to fight them. He may think the cause is just, or he may not, either way it will not matter one bit to his superiors. And in war he may have to commit acts of extreme brutality. He will be sent to places he doesn’t want to go, fight in wars he might not approve of, meet people that he has no personal grudge against, and have to kill them without a second’s hesitation. And it is pretty likely that innocent civilians will be caught in the crossfire, and die at his hands. If he refuses, probably he won’t be shot, but very likely he will be sent to prison for 20 years.

Ask your son if he is willing to swear an oath to serve "my country, right or wrong. " If he says yes, point out that he has declared his willingness to do wrong. Ask him if he really wants a career based on doing wrong. “Serving” is just another word for being willing to abandon your own personal sense of morality in exchange for money.

Let him think about this for a while, then suggest to him that he might consider a career in law enforcement instead. Becoming, for example, an FBI special agent, would give him plenty of excitement. He could take down drug dealers and serial killers and be pretty much sure that everything he does will be in a just and noble cause, without having to make any kind of moral compromise.

151

There is no such oath to serve your country “right or wrong”.

The U.S. military enlistment oath taken by all personnel is:

In fact, military personnel are not obligated to obey an order that would require breaking the law. This came up during the recent trials for prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib prison.

152

I resisted posting to this thread as long as I could.
[popeye]
That’s all I can stand, I can’t stands no more!
[/popeye]

If my mother had done what you suggest, she would have been laughed at.

Horse droppings. Why is it that people who have never served in the military assume that doing so requires you to surrender your ability to think for yourself?

You know that’s funny, I found myself participating in a war in a place I didn’t want to go and none of these abhorrent things happened to me. In the extremely limited armed conflict I was personally involved in, the thought of whether what I was doing was just or unjust never occurred to me…all I remember thinking is “that bastard wants to kill me…well screw that!”

The oath is to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic and to obey the orders of the President and the officers appointed above (the enlistee) me. As near as I recall after 20 years since I took it. Right and wrong aren’t mentioned. Further - service personnel are not required to obey unlawful orders. What the oath means quite simply is this: “I will do my duty”. Duty is really the core of the whole military experience. A person who wants to enlist in the first place probably already has a well defined sense of their duty, or they wouldn’t be there. If you think anyone in the history of the US armed services has ever enlisted to trade their “personal sense of morality in exchange for money” you are severely deluded. In essence you just called all service members and veterans whores and I take extreme personal umbrage at that.

Shame you didn’t limit your post to just that paragraph, because it’s the only reasonable thing you had to say.

153

From reading your followups on the it seems you have on your own come to the advice that I would give any parent with a son or daughter who wants to enlist, and that is simply this:

Your son is 19 and for all intents and purposes, he is a man. Whatever maturity he may lack, he is capable and legally able to make decisions and enter into contracts without parental consent or guidance. There’s a real good chance that he has already made his decision, be it right or wrong, for a good reason or a bad one. If you start from a position of trying to talk him out of it, you will likely create friction and he will go anyway, without your blessing. This will cause you both unnecessary stress and anxiety, particularly if the future finds him overseas. What you need to do as a parent is to give him all of the support and love that you can. Be clear about your fears, but let him understand that he will have your support whatever his decision is - and then give it to him, whatever his decision is. If you do this, he will feel a sense of responsibility (possibly for the first time) because if the decision is solely his own and he has your full faith and support he will actually take the time to consider the consequences. You will give him a dose of maturity before he walks out the door. If he knows you trust him, he will return your trust and actually listen to your opinions.

My mother earned my undying respect when I was 17 years old. Up to then, we never agreed on anything, political or otherwise. I decided before I even finished high school that I was going to enlist in the Navy. Why? Because all I ever wanted to be was a sailor. My mother was thoroughly opposed to me serving in the military, and quite fearful of what would happen to me. To enlist at 17, I needed my mother’s signature on the enlistment papers. Then I would leave for boot camp 2 weeks after graduating high school. My mother was faced with a choice: sign my papers despite her own moral reservations and fears or wait 2 months and have me enlist on my own. I never voiced this to her, never gave her an ultimatum. She knew what the right thing to do was and she swallowed her fears out of her duty to support her son. I turned 18 one month into boot camp. My relationship with my mother changed the day she made that decision. I respected her and started to listen to her opinions instead of just gainsaying anything she had to offer. The maturity that I gained at home from just that experience put me on the right road for a successful military career. As a result, I believe I am a better human being today, thanks both to a supportive parent and my military experience.

YMMV

154

Exactly, that was my entire point. You are a professional soldier, hired to fight other peoples causes for them. And that means you have put aside your own personal thoughts whether the cause was just or not. I

Military service means setting aside one’s own personal sense of morality. Whether this is a significant loss is up to the individual.

155

What you describe is a mercenary, not a professional soldier/sailor/marine/airman. I was not hired to fight other people’s causes, I volunteered to defend my nation.

Not at all. My personal thoughts and my moral compass bear a direct relation to what I consider(ed) it my lawful duty to do. The point I was trying to get across is simply that once there was a direct threat to my life, my only motivation was survival. After it was all over and I had time to reflect on it, yes moral questions were raised. They were dealt with and I felt comfortable that I had performed my duty, and I was grateful that I and my shipmates all survived the encounter without serious injury. If I had said “maybe it was the wrong thing to do, but I got paid, so to heck with it” you would be correct in your assessment. I didn’t and neither has anyone else I’ve ever heard of.

Wrong…military service may involve reassessing and adjusting one’s own moral compass, but that is a far cry from being required to do something morally repugnant. That is why we have something called “conscientious objector” status. Anyone serving in the military can claim conscientious objector status. This effectively ends their military career and I’m sure is not pleasant, but if they are that morally committed to conscientiously objecting then the administrative consequences (OTH discharge, possible difficulty getting a job) should be a small sacrifice.

156

Okay, first of all threads of this sort have come up several times. In every one of them there are veterans advocating service in part because of the great pay you get. Not the only reason, but certainly a reason. See post 16 in this thread for an example.

“Whore” is a strong word, it’s your term not mine.

I don’t make sweeping statements about ALL veterans. Anyone that put their life on the line in a cause they believe to be just has my deepest respect. Even if I don’t personally agree with the cause, I can respect the man. For instance, someone who enlisted in Viet Nam because he thought that the Commies needed to be fought and was willing to risk his own life doing it.

Doing it as a career option is something else entirely. You have admitted your participation in a war without any personal belief that you were fighting a just cause.You were just doing your job.

I wouldn’t call you a whore for doing it, but I would say you are rather amoral.

157

I don’t recall ever seeing anyone claim to have gotten wealthy in the military. Usually, the point that is made is that the pay is better than what you could expect to earn straight out of high school with little or no work experience. I believe this is demonstrably true.

Oh, and what other word would YOU use for someone who is “willing to abandon [their]own personal sense of morality in exchange for money”?

This statement doesn’t seem to have a disclaimer attached:

Have you figured out what was so offensive about your post yet?

Well…yes. At the time I enlisted Iraq was an ally. We only questioned this when the USS Stark was attacked, and even then it was largely overlooked because our primary mission was countering the Soviets. I enlisted because being a sailor was what I wanted to do with my life. When wartime came, I did my duty and I honored my oath. If it makes you more comfortable, I believed then and still do that our cause was just. I was simply more concerned with keeping myself and my shipmates safe than with pondering the morality of why we were there. Anyone who enlisted because they wanted to go to Desert Storm probably wasn’t out of training by the time it was over.

And if I told you that I wish we had gone all the way to Baghdad in 1991 would you call me immoral too?

158

Following the law and doing the right or wrong thing often have very little to do with one another.

159

Funny, I thought they have just about everything to do with each other.

160

But, basically, persuading people to fight in return for financial benefits.

Erm, I was offering Samclem some ideas on what he might say to his son to dissuade him from joining. I didn’t say it to you.
But just to make the point, “service” does mean following your orders, rather than doing what you think is right. See for instance :

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=3375
“One of the candidates running for the congressional seat was a former Marine reserve major who had recently served several months in Iraq commanding a civil affairs unit. Paul Hackett, an attorney who lives in Cincinnati, said during the campaign that he had opposed the Iraq war, yet felt it was his duty to volunteer to serve there.”

So, out of a sense of duty he put aside his own personal sense of morality, and participated in a war that he felt was wrong.

Are you saying that makes him a whore? I certainly am not. A hypocrite, perhaps.

And if a soldier refuses to fight for a cause he doesn’t agree with, then there are certain consequences… criminal charges and military justice.

http://www.abc.net.au/correspondents/content/2004/s1216480.htm

Just a question for you. Suppose Bush starts a new war that happens to be deeply offensive to your own personal sense of morality. I mean, it really goes trotally against everything you believe to be right. Do you :

  1. Ignore your own principles, and fight the war anyway, out of duty.
  2. Refuse to fight, resign and take the consequences.
  3. something else.