# Tell me your kid (or you) turned out okay after this kind of atrocious behavior **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 27, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683 "2015-04-27T23:54:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683/161 "2015-04-29T17:11:59Z")
Also, consider that if this is cyclical or intermittent in nature, it may continue to be so for part or all of her adult life. Teaching her that seeking mental health help is okay and nothing to be ashamed of may literally save her life one day. Not all therapy is forever. In fact old fashioned once a week talk it or therapy is pretty passe. Partly because insurance won’t pay for it forever, and partly because it’s not always needed. More commonly, people go in, learn some stuff and then stop going for a while, until they need help again. But that means you have to recognize when you need help and not be afraid to get it. Don’t let her form a stigma against mental health problems or therapies. Not with her genetic risk. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683/162 "2015-04-29T17:15:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If I ever ask for relationship advice on the SDMB, or the Internet in general, do me a favor and shoot me. Sure. What are friends for? Reloads, Turnip ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683/163 "2015-04-29T17:16:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There I guess I disagree. > > I have the two best kids in captivity, and there have been times I disliked them. Obviously I have no idea how similar **Frylock** ’s family is to mine. > > If I ever ask for relationship advice on the SDMB, or the Internet in general, do me a favor and shoot me. > > Regards, > Shodan Well, I’m not saying that every time a kid goes through an obnoxious phase the whole family has to troop off to therapy. But, this seems to be a prolonged issue that’s not improving and might be getting worse. And, Frylock seems totally clueless as to what to do, and I don’t think he’s equipped. All that may not apply at all to you and your kids, in which case my advice would likely be different. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683/164 "2015-04-29T17:26:39Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Well, I’m not saying that every time a kid goes through an obnoxious phase the whole family has to troop off to therapy. But, this seems to be a prolonged issue that’s not improving and might be getting worse. And, Frylock seems totally clueless as to what to do, and I don’t think he’s equipped. All that may not apply at all to you and your kids, in which case my advice would likely be different. Yep, what a misplaced stigma therapy has. If it’s just for clueless ill-equipped parent situations, who wouldn’t rush to participate? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683/165 "2015-04-29T17:41:19Z")
**DSeid** mentioned [oppositional defiant disorder](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppositional_defiant_disorder) in post #108. I’m not a doctor, and even if I were, I would not diagnose from a distance. But your daughter seems to have ODD. I have a 17-year-old daughter with ODD, and I saw so many similarities between her behavior and that of your daughter. Please seek professional counseling now that involves both parents and your daughter. You all need to learn how to deal with a child with a brain that is fundamentally different than normal. My daughter has gotten better, but still has a long ways to go before she is mentally healthy. Natural development of the brain as it matures has been a big factor in helping her get better. She now has more frontal lobe power to control her reptile brain, and she will have 4-5 more years of brain growth in the years ahead to help her out even more in that regard. But she and her parents have also learned many skills in individual and group therapy sessions that help a lot, too. So there’s hope. PM me if you’d like more info/advice. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683/166 "2015-04-29T18:07:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There I guess I disagree. > > I have the two best kids in captivity, and there have been times I disliked them. Obviously I have no idea how similar **Frylock** ’s family is to mine. > > If I ever ask for relationship advice on the SDMB, or the Internet in general, do me a favor and shoot me. > > Regards, > Shodan I think there is a big difference from disliking behavior, finding it annoying etc. And the language Frylock used in the OP, which is why I said his attitude needed work. The crazy thing I noticed is that more than once since the OP he has “praised” his daughter, but always in things he doesn’t value. ---
**Author:** ![funky\_little\_lee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@funky\_little\_lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/funky_little_lee)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683/167 "2015-04-29T18:07:51Z")
Re: taking her out of the gifted program–if she hates being there, let her out. Re: having her fail a grade–let her fail. I’m saying this as someone who was that kid. I scored in the 99th percentile on my tests, but I was started in school at 4 years old–a year younger than the other kids in my class–so I lagged way behind socially. Of course, because of my test scores I was placed in the gifted program, where expectations were even higher. The frustration with being prodded to be an “achiever” on top of my being emotionally behind my classmates made me hate school even more. So, like another poster’s kid, I just did the very minimum I could to coast by. My parents insisted I go to college. I begged them to let me take a year off between HS and college and they refused. I ended up dropping out of college after three semesters. Ironically, that never hurt my ability to work in settings where everyone else had a degree; I had the ability and that stood out. But I hated those types of settings, and now I am in a trade where the stress is low and the expectations for achievement are also low. IOW, I’m that person who is quite content to coast through life. I wouldn’t go back to a professional job even if I could. I can easily see how the stress of being constantly prodded to be something she either isn’t ready to be, or will just never be, could throw your daughter over the edge. Obviously I can’t tell you what to do, but IMO, taking the pressure off and letting the girl find a place in life where she feels confident and comfortable–perhaps even asking the school district to have her repeat a grade–may do her and you a lot of good. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683/168 "2015-04-29T18:12:50Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But according to you that missing piece of information was the whole point–it was the explanation for why it was okay to allow your son to jump on the couch. I’m as confused as I ever was. Yeah, he seems to be showing the same behavior as his daughter, ODD, that Spiff mentioned in post 165. Frylock: Here’s a story. Posters: Opinions x, y and z Frylock: You all are showing a lack of charity because you don’t know the whole story. Posters: Well then tell us the whole story. Frylock: No. Posters: Opinions x, y and z. Frylock: Lack of charity. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683/169 "2015-04-29T18:19:13Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Yeah, he seems to be showing the same behavior as his daughter, ODD, that Spiff mentioned in post 165. > > Frylock: Here’s a story. > > Posters: Opinions x, y and z > > Frylock: You all are showing a lack of charity because you don’t know the whole story. > > Posters: Well then tell us the whole story. > > Frylock: No. > > Posters: Opinions x, y and z. > > Frylock: Lack of charity. I think he does that so he has an out for the opinions he hates, so he can say you have no idea what you’re talking about so foo! ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683/170 "2015-04-29T18:25:51Z")
> [@funky\_little\_lee](#): > > Re: taking her out of the gifted program–if she hates being there, let her out. Re: having her fail a grade–let her fail. > > I’m saying this as someone who was that kid. I scored in the 99th percentile on my tests, but I was started in school at 4 years old–a year younger than the other kids in my class–so I lagged way behind socially. Of course, because of my test scores I was placed in the gifted program, where expectations were even higher. The frustration with being prodded to be an “achiever” on top of my being emotionally behind my classmates made me hate school even more. So, like another poster’s kid, I just did the very minimum I could to coast by. > > My parents insisted I go to college. I begged them to let me take a year off between HS and college and they refused. I ended up dropping out of college after three semesters. Ironically, that never hurt my ability to work in settings where everyone else had a degree; I had the ability and that stood out. But I hated those types of settings, and now I am in a trade where the stress is low and the expectations for achievement are also low. IOW, I’m that person who is quite content to coast through life. I wouldn’t go back to a professional job even if I could. > > I can easily see how the stress of being constantly prodded to be something she either isn’t ready to be, or will just never be, could throw your daughter over the edge. Obviously I can’t tell you what to do, but IMO, taking the pressure off and letting the girl find a place in life where she feels confident and comfortable–perhaps even asking the school district to have her repeat a grade–may do her and you a lot of good. Just to get this clarified: there is no sense in which we prod her to be something she doesn’t to be, and she has never given the slightest indication that she’d prefer not to be in the high ability program. It’s just that lately she has not been turning in homework, or has been turning in incomplete homework. That’s the full extent of any academic problems that have occurred. I am very very much okay if she grows up to be happy to coast. (I myself am pretty much that way (well, with constant wistful thoughts about how great I could have been, but knowing myself just not to have the drive for it)). If that’s her too, then great! But I don’t think now is the time to be deciding that it is. If it were a matter of placing some huge burden on her then maybe this’d be decision time. But there’s no onerous burden being put on her–it was just a matter of making sure she’d done her homework before she watched TV. She would try to get away with not doing some problems or whatever, we’d point out she’d missed some, she did them, the end. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683/171 "2015-04-29T18:27:42Z")
> [@grude](#): > > I think there is a big difference from disliking behavior, finding it annoying etc. And the language Frylock used in the OP, which is why I said his attitude needed work. To my understanding, X doesn’t have attitude Y unless X endorses Y. I do not endorse my not liking my kid very much. The word you should be looking for is not attitude, but confession. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683/172 "2015-04-29T18:28:44Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > How we behave is who we are. We may have modes and variations, but our actions reveal our natures. Okay, and our natures can be disjunctive. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683/173 "2015-04-29T18:32:39Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But according to you that missing piece of information was the whole point–it was the explanation for why it was okay to allow your son to jump on the couch. I’m as confused as I ever was. But as I said in the very things I quoted, I was not at any time back then trying to explain why it was okay. (Obviously! Since I was withholding that very information!) Hence, the explanation was beside the point. Again: Since I wasn’t trying to explain why I was reasonable, an explanation as to why I was reasonable was not relevant. Again again: What I was trying to explain was that people were foolishly drawing conclusions based on uncharitable assumptions. While offering an explanation would have been relevant to this, it was not _necessary_, and I had reasons (which I explained, see above post) to withhold that information. Again again again: The following are two different claims: 1. It was reasonable to allow the kid to jump on the couch. 2. You guys are making unfair assumptions. I was NOT arguing for 1. I WAS arguing for 2. Giving you the full scenario WOULD have resolved 2, but would ALSO have constituted an argument for 1, which I was refusing to do. So I had to take some other tack in arguing for 2. _How is this not clear by now._ Forget everything else. Just read the above. Is that not, finally, after everything else, is it not at last clear to you? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683/174 "2015-04-29T18:33:42Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Yeah, he seems to be showing the same behavior as his daughter, ODD, that Spiff mentioned in post 165. > > Frylock: Here’s a story. > > Posters: Opinions x, y and z > > Frylock: You all are showing a lack of charity because you don’t know the whole story. > > Posters: Well then tell us the whole story. > > Frylock: No. > > Posters: Opinions x, y and z. > > Frylock: Lack of charity. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683/175 "2015-04-29T18:35:03Z")
Unfortunately conversations have a way of going in directions beyond your control. Just because that was not what you wanted to talk about doesn’t mean everyone else had reading comprehension issues. Just reiterating “that’s not what this is about” doesn’t mean that everyone else is going to stop the conversation they wished to have. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683/176 "2015-04-29T18:37:00Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > But as I said in the very things I quoted, I was not at any time back then trying to explain why it was okay. (Obviously! Since I was withholding that very information!) Hence, the explanation was beside the point. > > Again: Since I wasn’t trying to explain why I was reasonable, an explanation as to why I was reasonable was not relevant. > > Again again: What I was trying to explain was that people were foolishly drawing conclusions based on uncharitable assumptions. While offering an explanation would have been relevant to this, it was not _necessary_, and I had reasons (which I explained, see above post) to withhold that information. > > Again again again: The following are two different claims: > > 1. It was reasonable to allow the kid to jump on the couch. > 2. You guys are making unfair assumptions. > > I was NOT arguing for 1. I WAS arguing for 2. Giving you the full scenario WOULD have resolved 2, but would ALSO have constituted an argument for 1, which I was refusing to do. So I had to take some other tack in arguing for 2. > > _How is this not clear by now._ > > Forget everything else. Just read the above. Is that not, finally, after everything else, is it not at last clear to you? But your approach actually distracted from the argument for 2. How is that not clear to you? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683/177 "2015-04-29T18:42:23Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Unfortunately conversations have a way of going in directions beyond your control. Just because that was not what you wanted to talk about doesn’t mean everyone else had reading comprehension issues. Just reiterating “that’s not what this is about” doesn’t mean that everyone else is going to stop the conversation they wished to have. Totally. But I’m not complaining about what people are talking about–they should talk about whatever they want to talk about, usually! I’m complaining about the arguments people are making. Arguments are based on readings, and bad readings yield bad arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683/178 "2015-04-29T18:46:24Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > But your approach actually distracted from the argument for 2. How is that not clear to you? My hands were tied (by myself of course) by my resolution not to justify my actions to anyone, and instead to simply to assert that the actions were reasonable. Of course I see that this detracted, I explained just now that it was an obstacle to get around. But I had good reasons to take on that resolution, and it was not impossible to follow through on arguing for 2 while maintaining the resolution. Just more difficult. The argument worked, in the logical sense. But people insisted on misreading it as an argument for 1, despite my repeated clear explanations to the contrary. It was an obstacle, one imposed by myself, but it was only an obstacle _because_ a bunch of other people werne’t bothering to read carefully and also preferred to be uncharitable. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683/179 "2015-04-29T18:56:36Z")
I am so bored I actually read through this whole mess. My conclusion is that in the case of the OP the apple didn’t fall far from the tree. ---
**Author:** ![funky\_little\_lee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@funky\_little\_lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/funky_little_lee)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683/180 "2015-04-29T18:57:10Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Just to get this clarified: there is no sense in which we prod her to be something she doesn’t to be, and she has never given the slightest indication that she’d prefer not to be in the high ability program. My apologies for not having been clearer. I didn’t mean that you specifically were prodding her, just that her environment at school probably feels that way. Having said that, I never asked to be let out of the gifted program either. I knew it was pointless because whose parents would ever do that? So I took it as another burden and tried to shed the frustration the only way I knew how, by taking myself out of it as best I could. As I said, I can’t tell you what to do. Nor am I suggesting I’m speaking for your daughter. What I’m saying is just a view from someone who has been, academically at least, where she may be now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-me-your-kid-or-you-turned-out-okay-after-this-kind-of-atrocious-behavior/718683.md?page=10)