# Tell us what you know about the theory of evolution without using anything but your own brain. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419 "2010-01-10T19:51:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/81 "2010-01-11T18:38:05Z")
**Marley** , forgive me if this belongs in ATMB, but I don’t think debating evolutionary theory is out of place here. From the OP: > [@](#): > > Once you’re past your first entry, cite (and call for cites) to your heart’s consent. Likewise, you may point out errors, misconceptions, incomplete ideas, and misleading statements in previous posts. Just try to leave your swords in their scabbards, revolvers in their holsters, and axes in whatever you store your axes in. The last sentence was merely intended to forestall a _Xtians sucks!_ / _Scientists are spawn of Mephistopheles!_ situation. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/82 "2010-01-11T18:38:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **Silverstreak Wonder** , if you want to try to debate against evolutionary theory, please start a new thread. If not, I suggest you read the other posts in this thread. You might learn something about the subject you are discussing. EDIT: I’m also advising all the other posters to let go of this tangent. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/83 "2010-01-11T18:43:50Z")
I’m ignoring the mod notice at this point, but I think I’m well within the intent of the thread. > [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Well I think of evolution as saying if you wait long enough all combinations of atoms will happen thus there is no creator or plan. Some of these become alive, somehow, and reproduce right away, somehow. (Taking from your original post) Well _there_’s your poblem. That is not what **the theory of evolution** is. What you are talking about is your own interpretation of something that _isn’t even evolution_. As others have said, you seem to be talking about [abiogenesis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/84 "2010-01-11T18:44:06Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > Why? Because he has yet to show us what he _does_ know about evolution-which is the initial purpose of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/85 "2010-01-11T18:46:23Z")
**Silverstreak Wonder** , please tell us what you know about evolution. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/86 "2010-01-11T18:46:32Z")
I saw **Silverstreak Wonder** ’s topic as being separate from the one **Skald the Rhymer** proposed, but if everyone’s okay with it being included, I’m happy to waive it. Party on, Wayne. **Silverstreak Wonder** , if you would post what you _do_ know about evolution, it would be a helpful contribution to the thread. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/87 "2010-01-11T18:46:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Because he has yet to show us what he _does_ know about evolution-which is the initial purpose of this thread. Yes, he has. The knowledge he has is wrong, that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/88 "2010-01-11T18:49:52Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > Yes, he has. The knowledge he has is wrong, that’s all. I’ve seen a bunch of misleading questions followed by dismissals galore(“Dismissals Galore” was the one woman Bond _couldn’t_ get, btw), but I haven’t seen him post what he himself knows. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/89 "2010-01-11T18:55:29Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Inner, in your post 73, you say no scientist locks out data, then by the last sentence you lock the origin of life right out of it anyway. Kind of funny. Again it shows how if it does not fit, just leave it out. > > Well the origin of life is certainly required to go from elements in a pond to living things, I have never seen a piece of iron reproduce itself, so seems like the living process is rather important to the evolution theory. Since it can’t be figured out, well just leave it out like it is not an important fact? > > Several others have the same problem, they basically say, well this works if you just ignore what life is and how it came about. How can that be good scientific method? If life fits evolution then prove it does. Otherwise, false theory. The theory of evolution also fails to talk about recipes for clam chowder. That’s because it’s not about recipes for clam chowder. It’s about evolution - about changes over time. It’s the theory of evolution, not the theory of everything. This has already been pointed out to you a dozen times, but maybe this rewording will make it get through. Please quote this post just to demonstrate that you have actually read some of the words in this thread. You don’t have to respond to the content of my post, just click ‘quote.’ If you don’t quote this post, I’ll assume you’re not reading at all. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/90 "2010-01-11T18:57:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’ve seen a bunch of misleading questions followed by dismissals galore(“Dismissals Galore” was the one woman Bond _couldn’t_ get, btw), but I haven’t seen him post what he himself knows. Nah - his first line was what he thinks he knows about evolution. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/91 "2010-01-11T19:05:24Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Inner, in your post 73, you say no scientist locks out data, then by the last sentence you lock the origin of life right out of it anyway. Kind of funny. Again it shows how if it does not fit, just leave it out. . I think you’re unclear on what the word _data_ means. Let me try an analogy. Say the check engine light on my car is on. I take it to the mechanic and he uses the gizmo to check the computer readout; it says that there’s a fuel pump problem, but there are no clear symptoms of that, so the mechanic begins running tests to see if he can pin down the problem. At no point, though, does he ask me how I paid for the car, because it’s irrelevant to the issue at hand. That’s basically what we mean when we say that the origin of life has nothing to do with the TOE. The TOE is about DIVERSITY of SPECIES. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/92 "2010-01-11T19:35:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’ve seen a bunch of misleading questions followed by dismissals galore(“Dismissals Galore” was the one woman Bond _couldn’t_ get, btw), but I haven’t seen him post what he himself knows. To be fair to 007, he didn’t care if he got dismiss or datmiss. \ ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/93 "2010-01-11T21:27:19Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > I think when they do totally map DNA they will find there were few mutations, and those died, but rather that what developed was just choices available in the DNA code all the while, designed in other words, maybe triggered to be used by environmental factors. It’s already known for sure that this isn’t true. Novel mutations can be and have been observed. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/94 "2010-01-11T21:38:40Z")
Might as well add my own perspective. Life is essentially a vehicle for DNA to ensure its own immortality. The DNA’s genotype is a recipe for the phenotype, which essentially has the job of keeping the DNA intact until copies can be made. (That sounds so romantic!) On occasion copy errors are made, and on very rare occasions the error is beneficial to the phenotype. Evolution is when the improved phenotype can outcompete its peers for resources, which includes sexual mates. This propogates the “error” throughout the population, which as a whole gives the population an edge in the environment. As to evolution vs abiogenesis is concerned, my own personal belief is that there’s not a huge dividing line. Can we create a cell in a lab? No, because a cell itself is a highly evolved form of life. It’s not the starting point of evolution, it’s the result of hundreds of thousands of years of it. Real abiogenesis was when a protein molecule figured out a way to make a copy of itself. The moment that happened, evolution took over. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/95 "2010-01-11T22:01:01Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Yeah maybe they do try to lock it out since it would disprove the theory. I know I was similarly told it is stupid to question the steady state theory in 1950’s, even though it did not explain life either. If any theory does not include this info I know it is false by now. I remember so many false things, the craters on the moon were all volcanoes, and on and on. Each time something comes up to disprove it, well just leave it out, say it works fine if we just don’t consider all the facts. Yeah, great science. Good example. In the early 1950s, there were two schools of thought on the origins of lunar craters - volcanoes were never the one accepted answer, but Arthur C. Clarke leaned to them, for example. But the discussion (and I have books from the period) always acknowledged that this was speculation, because the evidence was not in. When the evidence came in, pretty much everyone went with the meteorite hypothesis - and not aware of holdouts, but it could happen. The evidence is in with regard to evolution. It makes no more sense to believe in creationism than it does to believe that volcanoes are predominantly responsible for lunar craters - but if there was a verse in the Bible about it, I bet there would a lunar vulcanism movement. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/96 "2010-01-11T23:39:06Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > What does that even mean? If you damage the structures and chemicals in a cell beyond repair, it will die. It’s absolutely sweet fanny adams to do with evolution, or abiogenesis, which is what I presume you’re hinting at, which isn’t the same thing as evolution. You need to distinguish the two if you’re going to talk about the subject. While acknowledging that my own (almost certainly flawed) first post to this thread mentioned abiogenesis too. But ::cough cough:: at least I acknowledged the difference. ::Looks furtively about to see if anyone else noticed the self-contradiction. Nope, think I got away with it. Phew:: ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/97 "2010-01-11T23:54:23Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > While acknowledging that my own (almost certainly flawed) first post to this thread mentioned abiogenesis too. But ::cough cough:: at least I acknowledged the difference. So did mine. I don’t think it’s a any great problem to acknowledge that abiogenesis and evolution are in fact related topics (one’s the kick-start for the other, and you can’t discuss speciation very long without asking the inevitable question about what the first “species” was). The problem is when people don’t seem to be able to separate the two as scientific topics. Abiogenesis is an active question: we really don’t know how things got started, although there are a number of plausible hypothesis. Further, because we’re unlikely to ever find “fossils” or other markers of the “first life,” we may never have the evidence to say for sure, even when we manage to do it in the lab (we might have found an alternative mechanism). Evolution, on the other hand, is as proven as a scientific field can be: it makes active predictions that we can–and have–tested, and has falsifiability conditions that have been tested as well. It’s been witnessed, induced, and prevented in the lab. It’s evident from the fossil record. And as many folks have pointed out, if we assume mutation, reproductive success as a measure of fitness, and variability of fitness to various environments, it’s pretty much a required consequence: how could things NOT evolve under those circumstances? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/98 "2010-01-11T23:59:16Z")
Using nothing but my own brain, I know nothing about evolution, or math or science, or English. Whiat I know without reference to other brains: I am hungry. I am tired. I am horny. I don’t feel good. That’s it. ---
**Author:** ![manila](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@manila](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manila)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/99 "2010-01-12T00:09:52Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > snip I notice all evolutionists never talk about why they cannot create life, and it is supposed to be easy once you set up the right materials. If they cannot even BEGIN their process, why would I want to believe the rest of it?snip And here is the simple beauty of it. obviously nature did set up the right conditions to create life. That and the following evolutionary steps don’t actually depend on you believing it to be true. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/100 "2010-01-12T00:19:32Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > Evolution, on the other hand, is as proven as a scientific field can be: it makes active predictions that we can–and have–tested, and has falsifiability conditions that have been tested as well. It’s been witnessed, induced, and prevented in the lab. It’s evident from the fossil record. And as many folks have pointed out, if we assume mutation, reproductive success as a measure of fitness, and variability of fitness to various environments, it’s pretty much a required consequence: how could things NOT evolve under those circumstances? Well put. It’s a logical conclusion, rather than a philosophical one. I think what our friend is saying is that his comprehension of evolution is dependent on proving abiogenesis. But we could then say “hey, add God to the abiogenesis question if you like (for the time being, until contradicted by evidence) - now have a wee think about the mechanism whereby the rest of it arises.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419.md?page=6)