# Tell us what you know about the theory of evolution without using anything but your own brain. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419 "2010-01-10T19:51:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/141 "2010-01-13T20:40:06Z")
> [@Darwins\_Finch](#): > > While perhaps not a misconception, it does seem that most folks’ understanding of evolution begins and ends with natural selection (with some basic genetics thrown in). A pity, really, since there’s a heck of a lot more to it than that. How is it not a misconception that many persons think evolution begins & ends with natural section? That’s like thinking that the laws of motion begin & end with “For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.” In fact it’s worse, given the fact that many persons also think that “survival of the fittest” means “organisms always get bigger, stronger, and meaner over time.” ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/142 "2010-01-13T20:51:32Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > How is it not a misconception that many persons think evolution begins & ends with natural section? That’s like thinking that the laws of motion begin & end with “For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.” In fact it’s worse, given the fact that many persons also think that “survival of the fittest” means “organisms always get bigger, stronger, and meaner over time.” Note that I said “does seem that”. That’s because I can’t be sure that the previous posters who only made mention of natural selection in their brief summaries _really_ believe that that’s all there is to it. I suspect that most folks get that there’s more to it, but the “more” typically isn’t expounded upon in popular literature, or in basic high school or college-level courses. If folks _do_ believe that NS is evolution, and evolution is NS, then yes, that’s a misconception. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/143 "2010-01-13T20:56:45Z")
> [@Darwins\_Finch](#): > > Note that I said “does seem that”. That’s because I can’t be sure that the previous posters who only made mention of natural selection in their brief summaries _really_ believe that that’s all there is to it. I suspect that most folks get that there’s more to it, but the “more” typically isn’t expounded upon in popular literature, or in basic high school or college-level courses. > > If folks _do_ believe that NS is evolution, and evolution is NS, then yes, that’s a misconception. It’s a mild misconception, but do you really think it’s a **pity** that not everyone’s a subject matter expert in your field of interest? Reading the thread, I think people have a decent handle on the basics. I know people who thought the phases of the moon are caused by the Earth’s shadow, so it could be a lot worse. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/144 "2010-01-13T21:15:11Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s a mild misconception, but do you really think it’s a **pity** that not everyone’s a subject matter expert in your field of interest? Relax, it’s a turn of phrase, nothing more. I do not pity anyone in this thread, nor do I find anything about the posters pitiful. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/145 "2010-01-13T21:16:43Z")
> [@Darwins\_Finch](#): > > Relax, it’s a turn of phrase, nothing more. I do not pity anyone in this thread, nor do I find anything about the posters pitiful. I always figured you pitied me my lack of rhythm. It hurts that you don’t.☹ ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/146 "2010-01-13T22:02:04Z")
**CairoCarol** , said: > [@](#): > > The “theory of evolution” was developed by Charles Darwin decades before he published his thesis in “The Origin of Species.” He did not publish until he got wind of the fact that someone else was about to publish the same ideas, and he wanted credit for his deductions. For years he did not publish both because he feared the backlash from religious society, and out of respect for his beloved wife, who was far more religious than he was. To be fair, he developed the theory over time, and didn’t trust it at first so wanted to gather as much evidence along many different lines as possible. But largely he was cognizant of the religious affect and his own wife’s beliefs. **Really Not All That Bright** said: > [@](#): > > Well, not quite. A dead cell is chemically identical to a living cell, except that it’s dead, no? I would say no, there is something different in the chemistry. It’s like the difference between a car with the engine off and a car with the engine on - they are both cars, but only one can take you somewhere. **tdn** said: > [@](#): > > That brings up an interesting question, though. Is the mutation carried in just one sperm (or egg), or all of them? That depends. It is possible for the mutation to occur in the sperm creating cell’s DNA, which then affects all sperm it creates. Or it can just be in a sperm cell. **Cesario** said: > [@](#): > > 1. Overpopulation - A population of creatures grows larger than the environment can sustain. Technically, I don’t think overpopulation is required. I mean, predators are part of the environment, no? So keeping the population stable by killing off a certain percentage of every generation is still the environment sustaining the population. Right? The limiting factor is that dangers exist for the population - whether that is a limit on particular resources or external threats like predators or weather and terrain. Those dangers create situations where individuals within the population are in competition with each other. > [@](#): > > A common misconception of the concept of evolution is that it declares that man evolved from apes or monkeys. **Darwin’s Finch** said: > [@](#): > > This is a taxonomic issue, rather than a strictly evolutionary one. The current trend is to group organisms into monophyletic clades - that is, a group of populations or species that all evolved from a common ancestor. Since the most recent common ancestor of extant apes and humans was an ape, we inherit the moniker and are ourselves apes. The question is what **Cesario** meant by “apes”. I think he meant modern great apes, i.e. gorillas, chimpanzees, bonobos, or orangutans. His point was valid for that. However, “apes” is a group that is larger than just those modern exemplars, and includes humanity’s common ancestors with each of those other species, as well as the line of humans since. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/147 "2010-01-13T23:47:09Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I thought about opening this thread in IMHO or MPSIMS, but if the thread gets any legs at all I’m sure a discussion will break out so I decided not to bother. I opened the thread here rather than in GQ because my primary interest is seeing what people hereabouts know about evolutionary theory. A couple of comments: > > [ol] > [li]For obvious reasons, please don’t go to talk.origins, Wikipedia, or any other reference sites until you have made your first response to the thread. In fact, if you could refrain from links and citations in your first response, that would be great.[/li][li]Please also make your first response in the thread without reading other responses to the OP. [/li][li]Once you’re past your first entry, cite (and call for cites) to your heart’s consent. Likewise, you may point out errors, misconceptions, incomplete ideas, and misleading statements in previous posts. Just try to leave your swords in their scabbards, revolvers in their holsters, and axes in whatever you store your axes in.[/li][/ol] > > Go. Posting what I know about the theory of evolution would take quite a while, since I’ve read dozens of books and hundreds of papers on the topic, but for a quick summary I know the following things. 1. Evolution is the process by which new physical traits are formed in an organism and, through the method of natural selection (also sexual selection to a lesser extent), certain traits spread while others are eliminated. 2. The only method by which new traits can form is by mutations in an organisms DNA during the process of DNA replication. Most DNA mutations cause no results at all, a few cause harm, a very few are beneficial. The most common type is a point mutation, which can alter only one amino at a time. There are also other types of mutations, in which larger segments of the chromosome change. In the past, scientists believe that the genome consisted of distinct genes, each responsible for a single trait. In recent years, they’ve discovered that the situation is more complicated. Multiple genes may contribute to one trait, multiple traits may be influenced by one gene, and regions of DNA formerly thought to be useless may play a role in gene expression. 1. Natural selection occurs by Darwin’s six steps: organisms over-reproduce, not all organisms survive, variations exist, those variations are inherited, certain variations make an individual more fit, and as a result whole populations become more fit. Sexual selection occurs when a certain trait makes an individual more likely to mate and reproduce. 2. From the fossil record, scientists have deduced that organisms tend to go through long periods of relatively little change, interrupted by short periods of rapid change. This is called “punctuated equilibrium”. The biggest period of chance was the Cambrian Explosion roughly 600 million years ago, when all the complex animal phyla appeared. 3. Some people believe that evolution cannot account for the presence of complex chemical systems involving tens or hundreds of proteins, wherein the removal of any one protein will make the entire system useless, the argument being that the odds of multiple proteins arising from mutation at the same time or too small. Others respond that such systems can arise one protein at a time, where earlier versions of the system played a different role. 4. Evolution is unrelated to questions of the origin of life and the origin of the universe, and despite the grandiose claims of some people, does not provide any evidence against the existence of God. 5. There have been many theories designed to justify certain statements about human behavior on evolutionary grounds, ranging from Darwin’s early beliefs that certain races were inferior because they were less fully evolved up to current evolutionary psychology that seeks to explain the origin of current behaviors due to selection pressures in the pleistocene environment. Every single one of these theories has turned out to be false when put to experimental test. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/148 "2010-01-13T23:47:21Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I always figured you pitied me my lack of rhythm. It hurts that you don’t.☹ I always imagine your username to go along the lines of the [Bob the Builder theme song](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA16sqCusbY). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/149 "2010-01-14T00:02:02Z")
I left a lot out of my answer since I wanted to be general about it. While modern terrestrial biology does explain the inheritance of traits in terms of DNA sequences re-mixed during mating through meiosis and the like, none of that is inherent to evolution. If we ever encounter alien life forms which show variation in their traits, and reproduce in such a way that the traits of their offspring are correlated with those of their parent(s), then we’ll observe evolution among them, too, even if their genetic information is stored and transmitted in a completely different way than ours. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/150 "2010-01-14T00:03:30Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > I always imagine your username to go along the lines of the [Bob the Builder theme song](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA16sqCusbY). 🙂 I’m just swamped with paperwork today, so I’m gonna need you to take vengeance upon yourself. I’m FedExing you the alligators. ---
**Author:** ![Cesario](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Cesario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cesario)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/151 "2010-01-14T02:00:28Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > **Cesario** said: > > Technically, I don’t think overpopulation is required. I mean, predators are part of the environment, no? So keeping the population stable by killing off a certain percentage of every generation is still the environment sustaining the population. Right? > > The limiting factor is that dangers exist for the population - whether that is a limit on particular resources or external threats like predators or weather and terrain. Those dangers create situations where individuals within the population are in competition with each other. Yes, that would be reasonable. Natural consequence of trying to stuff a lifetime of education into a single forum post. These were the steps they explained to me in my earliest biology course, and obviously they were a simplification. I simply assumed that was the phrasing of the original theory due to the way it was presented. > [@Irishman](#): > > **Darwin’s Finch** said: > > The question is what **Cesario** meant by “apes”. I think he meant modern great apes, i.e. gorillas, chimpanzees, bonobos, or orangutans. His point was valid for that. However, “apes” is a group that is larger than just those modern exemplars, and includes humanity’s common ancestors with each of those other species, as well as the line of humans since. That’s why I added the word “modern” before both humans and apes at the end of that section, since I realized that this might need additional clarification. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/152 "2010-01-14T03:24:20Z")
> [@Cesario](#): > > That’s why I added the word “modern” before both humans and apes at the end of that section, since I realized that this might need additional clarification. Personally, I don’t get what the problem is with stating that Humans evolved from monkeys or apes. Sure the actual monkeys/apes we evolved from are extinct today, but that doesn’t mean that our ancestors weren’t apes. The only reason for this denial that I can see is that this fact is continuously misrepresented in the anti-evolutionary literature. As far as I can see the proper reaction should be to correct the factual errors, not to confuse matter further. **We are apes, and apes are monkeys**. Going back further, matters get more confused, but that is purely due to our poor nomenclature - we’re also mammals etc etc - just like birds appear to be a subset of dinosaurs. It’s just that much of the intermediate groupings are poorly defined and/or don’t actually exist except in our head. The common descent of our species all the way back to fish at least is pretty clear. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/153 "2010-01-14T03:41:42Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > 1. Evolution is unrelated to questions of the origin of life and the origin of the universe, and despite the grandiose claims of some people, does not provide any evidence against the existence of God. The existence of a supreme being, perhaps not. The existence of the God of the Bible? Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/154 "2010-01-14T03:58:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The existence of a supreme being, perhaps not. The existence of the God of the Bible? Absolutely. At the risk of being pedantic: that depends on how literally you take the bible. ---
**Author:** ![Cesario](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Cesario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cesario)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/155 "2010-01-14T04:06:56Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Personally, I don’t get what the problem is with stating that Humans evolved from monkeys or apes. Sure the actual monkeys/apes we evolved from are extinct today, but that doesn’t mean that our ancestors weren’t apes. > > The only reason for this denial that I can see is that this fact is continuously misrepresented in the anti-evolutionary literature. As far as I can see the proper reaction should be to correct the factual errors, not to confuse matter further. > > **We are apes, and apes are monkeys**. Going back further, matters get more confused, but that is purely due to our poor nomenclature - we’re also mammals etc etc - just like birds appear to be a subset of dinosaurs. It’s just that much of the intermediate groupings are poorly defined and/or don’t actually exist except in our head. The common descent of our species all the way back to fish at least is pretty clear. Among the things I know about evolution is that this fact is continuously misrepresented in anti-evolutionary literature. That’s why I included it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/156 "2010-01-14T05:23:27Z")
**TWEEEEEET!** The relationships between theology or religious beliefs and evolutionary theory are also not pertinent to this thread. Open a new thread to hammer that out, (or hammer each other). [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/157 "2010-01-14T07:08:33Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > **We are apes, and apes are monkeys**. Apes are _not_ monkeys. This is because “monkeys” are _not_ a clade, but a paraphyletic taxon - _defined_ as excluding apes, lemurs and other prosimians. The best word to substitute there is “simians” - us, the other apes, monkeys, we are all _simians_. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/158 "2010-01-14T09:58:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The best word to substitute there is “simians” - us, the other apes, monkeys, we are all _simians_. Except for those silly tarsiers. They don’t get to be in our club! Well, the simian one, anyway. They _do_ get to be in the Haplorrhini club with us, though… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/159 "2010-01-14T13:47:15Z")
> [@Darwins\_Finch](#): > > Except for those silly tarsiers. They don’t get to be in our club! Well, the simian one, anyway. They _do_ get to be in the Haplorrhini club with us, though… Well, they’re not monkeys, so serves them right. Damn coat-tail-hangers-on, they should go join the prosimians where they belong… [King Julian from Madagascar] …the sexy, sexy prosimians. [/KJfM] ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419/160 "2010-01-14T22:37:03Z")
**Cesario** said: > [@](#): > > These were the steps they explained to me in my earliest biology course, and obviously they were a simplification. I simply assumed that was the phrasing of the original theory due to the way it was presented. **ITR champion** said: > [@](#): > > 1. Natural selection occurs by Darwin’s six steps: organisms over-reproduce, not all organisms survive, variations exist, those variations are inherited, certain variations make an individual more fit, and as a result whole populations become more fit. Sexual selection occurs when a certain trait makes an individual more likely to mate and reproduce. You appear to be correct. I suppose I quibble over what is meant by “over reproduce”? Create more offspring than the number of parents (i.e. more than one offspring per parent per lifetime)? Creating more offspring than the environmental resources can support if they all survived to adulthood? Creating enough offspring that the population increases even after all limits (e.g. predation) are taken into consideration? **Superfluous Parentheses** said: > [@](#): > > **We are apes, and apes are monkeys.** Going back further, matters get more confused, but that is purely due to our poor nomenclature - we’re also mammals etc etc - just like birds appear to be a subset of dinosaurs. It’s just that much of the intermediate groupings are poorly defined and/or don’t actually exist except in our head. The common descent of our species all the way back to fish at least is pretty clear. This is perhaps a layperson vs. specialist thing, but humans are not fish, even though we are descended from fish. So why are birds dinosaurs just because they descended from dinosaurs? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tell-us-what-you-know-about-the-theory-of-evolution-without-using-anything-but-your-own-brain/524419.md?page=9)