# Temporal Lobe Epilepsy and Spiritual Prophets **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 12, 2003, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/temporal-lobe-epilepsy-and-spiritual-prophets/160878 "2003-03-12T17:42:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/temporal-lobe-epilepsy-and-spiritual-prophets/160878/1 "2003-03-12T17:42:19Z")
Within the past year I watched a show about Temporal Lobe Eplilepsy on PBS which has sparked my curiosity about this topic. I’m afraid I cannot remember the show, but Google is ripe with various perspectives on this condition. A sample: [Did Joseph Smith Suffer From Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?](http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/epilepsy.htm) [From The Storm](http://www.dowhile.org/physical/projects/storm/) Artists with Temporal Lobe Epilepsy [Did Ezekiel Have Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?](http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/issues/v59n6/ffull/ylt0602-2.html) [Epilepsy ‘found in biblical prophet’](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1656229.stm) On the show I can’t remember, a young man with the condition and his father were discussing their experiences with the young man’s seizures. His testimony was that when he is having a seizure, among other things, everything around him becomes so painfully beautiful and connected, that he is overcome with emotion and brought to tears. When asked if he would attempt treatment if one were available, he said that he would not sacrifice the intensity of emotion and connectedness with the world around him which come with his seizures. One medical explanation provided was that during the electrical storm that occures during an epileptic seizure of the temporal lobe, a cascade of chemical reactions are sparked, similar to that which occures in the chemistry of your brain when you look at a photograph of your parents. The neurochemical cascade causes that same emotional signifigance that one would place on the image of loved ones, to be applied to anything within the epileptic’s perception. It has been proposed that certain prophets and historical figures may have exhibited symptoms of Temporal Lobe Eplilepsy, and that their prophetic messages and orations may have been consequences of this condition, appart from being supposed messages from God or the voice of revolution. I’ve already betrayed my own religionless views, but I do feel that all of existance is united, and I do not think any views should be ignored, but rather applied by those who wish to, when they wish to. With that being said, I am curious what spiritual folk and others think. Would it matter to you, as a follower of a prophetic faith, if there were physical factors influencing a prophet’s visions? Would a condition like Temporal Lobe Epilepsy be considered a disease or a “gift from God?” Would a physical origin erode the signifagance of the message in your eyes? ---
**Author:** ![ChalkPit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e4f/32.png) [@ChalkPit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChalkPit)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2003, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/temporal-lobe-epilepsy-and-spiritual-prophets/160878/2 "2003-03-13T01:31:14Z")
Not trying a hijack but I think there’s a connection here to sleep paralysis, which I used to get on a regular basis. Studies I have seen in scientific documentaries in the UK on TV showed that it also has something to do with stimulation of the temporal lobes. There are records of people suffering from sleep paralysis and seeing visions, going back hundreds of years. Very scary the first few times you get it, VERY scary, but then get to a stage when you can almost ‘control’ it, as you get to know the signs of it starting. Difficult to describe what happens really, but its like your body is turning into a huge power transformer, buzzing like hell. I found I could ‘escape’ by making sure I left a finger free to wiggle (so no going to sleep with hands under the pillow for example). when the buzzing and paralysis hit, the harder you try to move, the more it takes hold, but if you concentrate like hell, just on putting all your strength into moving that finger, you can eventually pull out of it. Also, if you are prone to it, NEVER sleep on your back, as you’re asking for trouble. As for visions, I sometimes had the ‘feeling’ there were others around me, or talking in the next room, or just behind the door (I lived alone at this point). Very spooky. After a few years, it started to die away, and now I hardly ever get it any more. Sleep paralysis is also thought to be the main cause of the ‘UFO kidnap’ events suffered by so many people. ---
**Author:** ![straykat23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@straykat23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straykat23)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2003, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/temporal-lobe-epilepsy-and-spiritual-prophets/160878/3 "2003-03-13T01:49:35Z")
There is a wonderful novel, _Lying Awake_ by Mark Salzman, that deals with the subject. The quote is from the NYT: > [@](#): > > …Sister John’s waking dreams have led her toward the deepest religious ecstasy she has ever known, and have allowed her life and writings to become an example of the rewards of devotion for her fellow supplicants. But her visions are accompanied by shattering headaches, and when a doctor reveals that they may be dangerous, she faces a devastating choice. For if her spiritual gifts are symptoms of illness rather than grace, will a “cure” mean the end of her visions and a soul once again at odds with the world? A compelling, meaningful read. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2003, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/temporal-lobe-epilepsy-and-spiritual-prophets/160878/4 "2003-03-13T04:24:34Z")
I’ve heard this theory applied to Paul as well. To wit, his experience on the road to Damascus may have been an epileptic seizure. I find it interesting but not necessarily invalidating. If an experience brings insight, joy and wisdom, what difference does it make what causes it? ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2003, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/temporal-lobe-epilepsy-and-spiritual-prophets/160878/5 "2003-03-13T07:41:51Z")
The standard–and very valid–reply is that the simple fact that there is brain activity that is correlated with religious experiences doesn’t say one bit about the truth or nature of that which causes it. There’s brain activity correlated with seeing an apple, that doesn’t mean the apple’s not actually there–then again, neither does it say it is. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2003, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/temporal-lobe-epilepsy-and-spiritual-prophets/160878/6 "2003-03-13T08:04:21Z")
This topic of what Maslow referred to as “peak experences” has fascinated me for twenty years. I had no idea what Maslow was referring to and didn’t care – until it happened to me, but only one time. The OP and the responses have been so beautifully open. I believe that it is possible that such experiences are a glimpse of other levels of reality. I don’t want to be the resident Bliss Bunny, but I’ve seen what chemistry can do to perception of reality. Believe me, chemicals are affecting what you perceive as reality as you read. There is also the possibility that my experience was in reaction to rounds of “electric shock therapy” forty years ago. Maybe that jump-started (the technical term) my ability to experience what I did. It would not bother me a bit that prophets might have had temporal lobe epilepsy. That seems like such a clinical term for an overpoweringly awakening experience. But – “That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet.” honeydewgrrl, thanks for broadening my reading in this area by putting a name to it. Would I want to be “cured”? No way! ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2003, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/temporal-lobe-epilepsy-and-spiritual-prophets/160878/7 "2003-03-13T08:34:42Z")
—The standard–and very valid–reply is that the simple fact that there is brain activity that is correlated with religious experiences doesn’t say one bit about the truth or nature of that which causes it.— While true, having a biological explanation certainly undercuts the idea that we simply cannot explain these experiences in any other way than insights into alternative realities. While there’s no way to rule it out… there’s no longer any necessity for it either. And what about the people who seem to have these experiences WITHOUT such biological events? There’s an interesting essay on this (the contributions of mental illness) sticky question in the collection of essays called “The Trouble With Testosterone” by… erg I can’t remember. His point is not to dismiss religion as mental illness (as people always seem to take this issue whenever it comes up): indeed his point is that many religions have had to struggle with whether to accept or reject the insights of people that seem mentally ill, but also seem to connect their symptoms with religion. This has, historically, been a very complex relationship. He does make a pretty telling case, for instance, that Martin Luther was OCD (obsessive hand-washing, constant checking, obsessive confession, etc.), and indeed describes something I’d never heard about: a Catholic proceedure (and there’s a similar one in Judiasm) where people who obsessive about rules and self-punishment are not just absolved from having to follow all the rules, but actually required NOT to do so until they follow them for reasons other than sheer obsession and repitition. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2003, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/temporal-lobe-epilepsy-and-spiritual-prophets/160878/8 "2003-03-13T08:45:33Z")
This is similar to what happens in the near death experience. The person sees a great light and feels loved and wonderful, also visions of things more beautiful than can be described. Now, science is going to look at this as biological in nature, but those who experience them look at it as spiritual. When we leave/try to leave our physical bodies, things like this happen. Any time the focus of the consciousness changes from looking outward to looking inward this happens, or some elements of it. Drugs can cause some of it, meditation, day dreaming, extreme fear, or the things discussed above. The amount and intensity of the experience will follow the amount and intensity of the change in focus. I think I will stop here for the opinions of others. ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2003, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/temporal-lobe-epilepsy-and-spiritual-prophets/160878/9 "2003-03-13T09:19:22Z")
> [@](#): > > While true, having a biological explanation certainly undercuts the idea that we simply cannot explain these experiences in any other way than insights into alternative realities. While there’s no way to rule it out… there’s no longer any necessity for it either. Gods of gaps tend to inevitably be squeezed, sure enough. Their own fault for being so cottony soft! Was [this book](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684838915/qid=1047547185/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-7456253-2088002?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) the one holding the essay you referenced? It sounds fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/temporal-lobe-epilepsy-and-spiritual-prophets/160878/10 "2003-03-13T22:20:25Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ve heard this theory applied to Paul as well. To wit, his experience on the road to Damascus may have been an epileptic seizure. I find it interesting but not necessarily invalidating. If an experience brings insight, joy and wisdom, what difference does it make what causes it? I agree. The relationship between mental/biological “abnormalities” and “heightened” abilities and/or perceptions definitely piques my interests. If you will allow me a rather subjective argument, one has to suppose that people such as John Nash have been contributing to the collective knowlege base since the dawn of human kind. One also has to suppose that individuals in every walk of life have been and are positively impacting the world around them due to direct consequences of their “abnormalities”… whether they’re aware of it or not. Just like “abnormalities” can contribute to crime and negative impacts on existence. While socieity is relatively comfortable with the concept that a mentally ill murderer may not be conciously responsible for his/her own actions, I think that applying the same reasoning to academic breakthroughs and testimonials of enlightenment is akin to throwing the baby out with the bath water. What is gained by dismissing the perspectives of non-violent, non-criminal, non-“normal” minds? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/temporal-lobe-epilepsy-and-spiritual-prophets/160878/11 "2003-03-14T11:03:52Z")
Yep, that’s the book: Robert M. Sapolsky. I especially liked the chapter on Steven Hawking. ---
**Author:** ![ChalkPit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e4f/32.png) [@ChalkPit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChalkPit)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/temporal-lobe-epilepsy-and-spiritual-prophets/160878/12 "2003-03-20T20:11:36Z")
If any UK dopers are interested, there is a Horizon programme about temporal lope epilepsy and spiritual prophecy tonight at 9.00pm on BBC2. ---
**Author:** ![ChalkPit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e4f/32.png) [@ChalkPit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChalkPit)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/temporal-lobe-epilepsy-and-spiritual-prophets/160878/13 "2003-03-20T22:03:59Z")
It was cancelled due to the war reports…nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![Kn\_ckers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/96bed5/32.png) [@Kn\_ckers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kn_ckers)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/temporal-lobe-epilepsy-and-spiritual-prophets/160878/14 "2003-03-21T15:57:34Z")
I think this is an interesting issue to consider (and a great thread, so far!) - does it damage a prophet’s credibility if his/her visions are found to be caused by a seizure disorder? Personally, I doubt it. I think **Drastic** makes a very important point, in saying that the neural activity of a seizure does not necessarily devalue the spiritual experience. It is worth noting that temporal lobe epilepsy is so poorly understood by science, that even with modern diagnostics, an organic cause often cannot be found. Thus, there would be no evidence to contradict a person one who feels the activity is being caused by contact with a higher being. If you’ll humor me, I’d like to add a personal note (largely unrelated to the debate at hand, but my ego o’erwhelms me): I have had temporal lobe seizures occasionally for most of my life, and I have found mine to be extremely uncomfortable - not at all what I would imagine a religious vision to be. In my case, seizures consist of a very odd feeling of dissociation - the only way I can describe it is to say that it feels as though I’m watching the world on television, and that I can have no part in what is going on around me. There’s no apparent problem with my brain, so the cause was never defined (my neurologist supposed it’s probably a tiny congenital lesion too small to be imaged on MRI). Fortunately, the seizures, which were so frequent while I was in college as to be near-constant, have spontaneously decreased now to the point that I haven’t had one in months. Yay! … Of course, the nature of complex partial seizures is such that they vary enormously from patient to patient, so while mine are unpleasant, Ezekiel or Paul may well have had much nicer, more beautiful ones.